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Bourgogne vs. Bordeaux - Page 2

post #16 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bouji
I don't see how this has any effect on terroir...
Because the current democratization (read that however you like) of the wine market has led to the chemistry of the process becoming more important than the terroir, most significantly through the introduction of ageing in new-oak casks where historically they had never been used before--including Nuits St Georges. Since people are generally unwilling to wait 20+ years to open their trophy bottle of wine nowadays, the oak flavors tend to overpower the underlying flavor of the wine.

You can also add micro-oxygenation to the processes that are changing the terroir-centric interest in wine to a more ah...socialist approach of being able to produce identical wines anywhere in the world.

This same phenomenon allows chemists to predict very accurately the score that a wine will rate across critics, who pride themselves on rarely disagreeing, and then recommend chemical processes to vintners that will raise their scores X number of points per step.

Tom
post #17 of 39
Thanks whoopee. I've got a guy in Germany who I trust implicitly and am dreading trying to find someone similar once I move back to the States. They'll be a good place to start.

Tom
post #18 of 39
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger02
Because the current democratization (read that however you like) of the wine market has led to the chemistry of the process becoming more important than the terroir, most significantly through the introduction of ageing in new-oak casks where historically they had never been used before--including Nuits St Georges. Since people are generally unwilling to wait 20+ years to open their trophy bottle of wine nowadays, the oak flavors tend to overpower the underlying flavor of the wine.

You can also add micro-oxygenation to the processes that are changing the terroir-centric interest in wine to a more ah...socialist approach of being able to produce identical wines anywhere in the world.

This same phenomenon allows chemists to predict very accurately the score that a wine will rate across critics, who pride themselves on rarely disagreeing, and then recommend chemical processes to vintners that will raise their scores X number of points per step.

Tom

So, to improve my opinion of New World wines, which do you think I should try? Bearing in mind that Nuits is one of my favorite wines.
post #19 of 39
Ah, I never said I knew better I'm actually a bad person to ask, I don't know much about specific American vintners and only a little bit about their processes. Whoopee's advice on Oregon Pinot Noirs seems sound. There was a recent wine thread here and a slightly earlier one on AAAC, you might find some more in the archives.

Looking for European wines in America (or relatively wine-poor Germany) I would suggest finding either a shop or an importer whose tastes you trust. You may be able to do the same for New World wines in Europe.

Anyone else?
post #20 of 39
I actually really dislike the newfangled processes meant to achieve certain scores in from a select few wine critics, most notably Robert Parker, whose palate I, and many others, find disagreeable.

New World wines, on the most part, aren't intended to taste similarly to fine Old World wines - they (especially with Pinot Noir) just can't capture the same complexity and structure. That said, on the lower end of the price range, I enjoy them because they're very drinkable early in their lives and food-friendly. NZ Pinots are fairly accessible in London (moreso than in the USA). Try Ata Rangi, Felton Road (Block 3), Neudorf, Mountford.

NZ Sauvignon Blanc are excellent - very lively and snappy in youth and well suited to un-heavy seafood. Close to Sancerre and Pouilly Fume though not as ageworthy. Some names to remember: Craggy Range, Villa Maria, Cloudy Bay, Hunter's.

Then there are others, like Shiraz, Marsanne, Grenache, Viognier, etc. - many Rhone sourced grapes in Australia. Good stuff, but generally pretty aggressively outgoing and I still prefer the standards from Rhone. I suspect these wouldn't interest you as much. Some fine dessert wines (a category I love) are made in Australia, too. Sparkling Shiraz can be a treat. Chenin Blanc from South Africa (second rate compared to Loire), Malbec from Argentina which I honestly know little about.

I really enjoy Austrian Gruner Veltliner. Very food-friendly. I know it's Old World, but I thought I might give it a plug.

Californian and other American wines are priced ridiculously in London. Sme of the best Oregon Pinots are: Beaux Freres, Domaine Drouhin, Ken Wright. Drouhin is the most Burgundian (the name should be familiar). I can't say I ever looked for these in London, and don't know where to find them.
post #21 of 39
Thread Starter 
Last night I drank a LR for 3 pounds, a 2005 Domaine Saint Pierre (I made Beef Bourguignon with half the bottle and drank the other half), I was actually very impressed with the wine for the money; it's wines like this which steer me well clear of the New World.
Now I know a Languedoc Roussillon, Grenache Syrah blend is hardly a connoisseurs wine, but it tasted remarkably similar to a cross between a Saint Emilion and Chianti, which suffices to say, is not bad in my book.
Of what you have mentioned, the only one, which I remember trying is Cloudy Bay, which I was disappointed with. Then again I am not a huge fan of Whites. My white drinking is confined to Chablis, Montrachet, Pouilly Fumee, Pouilly Fuisse, and maybe some of the better Bordeaux wines like Yquem and Haut Brion. I cannot stand things like Pino Grigio, Sancerre, or cheap Semillon Bordeaux.
I will certainly look out for the NZ and Oregon Pinot Noirs, and also the other NZ whites that you mentioned, as I do enjoy Pouilly Fumee but not Sancerre.
Thanks for the recommendations.
post #22 of 39
I'm definitely in the Bordeaux camp - more consistent, better value, ages better, more complex. Too many red burgs smell grreat but hav ordinary, acidic palates. I must say I have drunk all the great burgundies from great years back to 1962 from Leroy, Rousseau, Lignier, DRC, Vogue, Ponsot, Dujac, Moillard, Meo-Camuzet, Chevillon, Arnoux, Comte Armand, Jadot, Faiveley, Gros, etc (indeed have nearly all of them in my cellar) but you are always treading a fine line if red burgundies are not from great vineyards, great regions (Gevrey Chambertin, Vosne Romanee, Musigny et al), and great vintages. 9 out of 10 Grand crus are disappointing in my experience and it is very costly! Much prefer my 1st and 2nd growth bordeauxs! Choice between a great DRC or great 1st growth? Bordeaux every time. Burgundy-philes tend to be pretty obsessive about their passion, and good luck to them. I don't think you can routinely spend $200 anywhere in the world and get a crap wine like you do regularly in Burgundy. I'm not into qualitative needle-in-haysticks!

Don't even get me started on the oxidation problems of white Burgundy post 1996. Anyway, Bordeaux has Sauternes!

If you are interested in a new world pinot that is not only Grand Cru quality but almost completely indistinguishable from red Burgundy, try Bass Phillip Reserve and Premium pinot from South Gippsland in Victoria, Australia. The Reserve is US$150 and Premium $100 but even Parker admits this is new world Pinot at Grand Cru level. I have lost count of the number of times I have slipped this into Grand Cru Red Burgundy tastings and it has flummoxed all burgundy-philes and come out if not at top then close to it! Other great Aussie pinots are Bindi Block 5, Bannockburn Serre, Pipers Brook Lyre and Giaconda. NZ is also making some great stuff such as Ata Rangi. Haven't been overly impressed with US pinot - too powerful and shiraz like to me!
post #23 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bouji
Don't get me started on New World wines....

In conversation with friends, they are reffered to as "New World Drain Water". I have had nothing but bad experinces.

If someone on the table orders a New World wine, I drink Scotch.


To me, sorry, this sort of elitist attitude is just silly. Take Australia for example: it has some of the oldest parcels of vines (shiraz, cabernet, grenache) in the world and makes sensational wines. The true test for people like Bouji (and I mean this respectfullY) who espouse your view is to set up a blind tasting and watch your preconceived notions crumble. I often slip the shiraz-based Grange in 1st growth tatstings and it is amazing how often no one can pick it as non-1st growth. Wines like Grange, Torbreck RunRig, Giaconda Cabernet, Bass Phillip Reserve, Leeuwin Estate Art Series Chardonnay, Cullen Diane madeline Cab Merlot, Henschke Hill of Grace, Mount Mary Quintets (despite what RPJ erroneously says), Grosset Polish Hill Riesling, Clonakilla Shiraz Viognier etc are all world class and comparable to anything from France. You really are doing yourself a dis-serrvice limiting yourself to the old world. That is without even considering true Aussie styles like Hunter Valley Semillon (Tyrrells Vat 1 and McWilliam Single Release Lovedale Semillon), sparkling reds (two best are Primo Estate The Joseph and Rockford Black Shiraz), and Shiraz/Cabernet blends like Yalumba The Reserve.
post #24 of 39
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baby Chickpea
To me, sorry, this sort of elitist attitude is just silly. Take Australia for example: it has some of the oldest parcels of vines (shiraz, cabernet, grenache) in the world and makes sensational wines. The true test for people like Bouji (and I mean this respectfullY) who espouse your view is to set up a blind tasting and watch your preconceived notions crumble. I often slip the shiraz-based Grange in 1st growth tatstings and it is amazing how often no one can pick it as non-1st growth. Wines like Grange, Torbreck RunRig, Giaconda Cabernet, Bass Phillip Reserve, Leeuwin Estate Art Series Chardonnay, Cullen Diane madeline Cab Merlot, Henschke Hill of Grace, Mount Mary Quintets (despite what RPJ erroneously says), Grosset Polish Hill Riesling, Clonakilla Shiraz Viognier etc are all world class and comparable to anything from France. You really are doing yourself a dis-serrvice limiting yourself to the old world. That is without even considering true Aussie styles like Hunter Valley Semillon (Tyrrells Vat 1 and McWilliam Single Release Lovedale Semillon), sparkling reds (two best are Primo Estate The Joseph and Rockford Black Shiraz), and Shiraz/Cabernet blends like Yalumba The Reserve.

I've not tried much New World, so am open to change. I've tried stuff like Lindemans Bin 50, and California Zinfadel, and been well, to put it mildly, disgusted.
post #25 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bouji
I've not tried much New World, so am open to change. I've tried stuff like Lindemans Bin 50, and California Zinfadel, and been well, to put it mildly, disgusted.

Bouji, I defy you to find any wine anywhere in the world that, on price alone, compares to the Lindemans Bin 50 at that price point! You really do get alot opf bang for your buck with this wine!

Australia is streets ahead (qualitatively and quantitatively) of everyone when it comes to the under US$7 category (to wit: Jacobs Creek, Yellowtail, etc). The wine cognoscneti can sneer all they like ....
post #26 of 39
New World Drain Water? This isn't Wentsworth talking, is it? If I could drink just one wine it would certainly be Red Burgundy. But who wants to drink just one wine? There are scads of stunningly good wines from all over the quaintly titled New World--South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, and, yes, even California, Oregon, and Washington produce wine that is as good and expressive as anything anywhere in the world. And, heck, I'll even put in a plug for that true California gem the Amador County Zinfandel. This is the real deal, the true ghost of the Gold Rush. Alcohol content can push 14%, but when it works it's as fine a thing as you could ever want.
post #27 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger02
Thanks whoopee. I've got a guy in Germany who I trust implicitly and am dreading trying to find someone similar once I move back to the States. They'll be a good place to start. Tom
Hello, Moore brothers, they sell to the Corkscrew in the Princeton, if it helps.
post #28 of 39
It does, thank you Vaclav. The Corkscrew is one of my favorite wine shops...and since I haven't mentioned it recently, makes me think you've been around in other forms for a while
post #29 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baby Chickpea
even Parker admits this is new world Pinot at Grand Cru level
This, along with your promotion of Yellowtail (one of my least favorite wines, anywhere) suggests that you and I do not have the same taste buds. Parker prefers New World and newfangled to Grand Crus anyway. I'm with whoopee and in some ways bouji. My favorites are relatively arcane St Emilions and Languedocs. After everything Italian that is

Tom
post #30 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger02
It does, thank you Vaclav. The Corkscrew is one of my favorite wine shops...and since I haven't mentioned it recently, makes me think you've been around in other forms for a while

It came to my mind, because of Landau, you once mentioned.

Do you know, the Corkscrew moved?
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