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Minimum wage or minimum guaranteed income? - Page 6

post #76 of 160
Did Ayn Rand advocate an MGI?
post #77 of 160
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal View Post
In other words you're about ready to drink the Kool Aide. Min. Income is Matt's biggest contribution to SF's political discourse, and is truly an issue that reaches across the aisle.
I'm trying to figure out whether this is a compliment or insult.
post #78 of 160
I'm trying to understand how MGI would work in the real world. Let's say the US switched to a MGI system and the level decided was $20K a year. Minimum wage went away. I'm going to assume your MGI would be tied to you having to work, right? You can't simply collect and do nothing but sit at home and watch Soaps. I would also assume that if you found a job that pays $12K a year, the Government would pay you the difference of $8K. So for any job that pays less then $20K a year, what incentive is there for them to pay you anything? Take a fast food chain, they could offer people $1 an hour for jobs knowing that they will take them so they can continue working and collect from the Government. Would this not shift even more burden to the tax payers over time? How would this be paid for? I can see the advantages to business and the growth it may cause, but would the increase tax revenue be enough to offset the increased spending?
post #79 of 160
1) Why not let people sit at home and watch soaps, if that's what they want? 2) Why 1:1 dollar? Why not some formula that encourages work that is > 1:1? 3) Why should certain, labour intensive sectors bear the brunt of an artificial floor?
post #80 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by RSS View Post
...
When the clerk took it without hesitating, I asked what it was. The woman in line turned around and said, "Now don't tell me you have never seen food stamps ... the government sends them to everybody." I replied, "I don't get them; in fact, I have to send the government a check. The government makes me pay them." She shot back, "Honey, you must of got some bad stuff. I ain't ever heard that kinda crazy talk before."

Please tell me that you're telling this story verbatim and a sic is in order.
post #81 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post
1) Why not let people sit at home and watch soaps, if that's what they want?

2) Why 1:1 dollar? Why not some formula that encourages work that is > 1:1?

3) Why should certain, labour intensive sectors bear the brunt of an artificial floor?

1) Because otherwise it would take away the incentive of anyone who would typically make less then $20K a year to work. If I was a Highschool dropout with job prospects looking to be in the minimum wage level for the majority of my adult life, why would I take a job at Burger King or as a Janitor under this system? If enough people at this level choose to not work, it could theoretically create an artificial minimum wage above $20K a year. These low paying jobs would have to offer more to create the incentive for people to work for them.

2. How would this be decided?

3. Again, I'm just trying to understand how MGI would work if actually applied and put into action.
post #82 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by iammatt View Post
I'm trying to figure out whether this is a compliment or insult.

Compliment. You're a uniter not a divider.
post #83 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMRouse View Post
1) Because otherwise it would take away the incentive of anyone who would typically make less then $20K a year to work. If I was a Highschool dropout with job prospects looking to be in the minimum wage level for the majority of my adult life, why would I take a job at Burger King or as a Janitor under this system? If enough people at this level choose to not work, it could theoretically create an artificial minimum wage above $20K a year. These low paying jobs would have to offer more to create the incentive for people to work for them.

2. How would this be decided?

3. Again, I'm just trying to understand how MGI would work if actually applied and put into action.

20 k would be too high. And it would be the your income plus MI minus your income/2.

So if you made 5k and the min was 20k your bonus would be 20k minus 5k equals 15k divded by 2 equals your gov. doll of 7.5k added to your earned money of 5k equals 12.5k total.

A person not working at all would be 0 plus 20k divided by 2 whcih equals 10k whcih would be your total income. So even working very little would still beat not working at all. And I don't think you would make getting a MI contingent on working at all. Right now SSI, welfare, foodstamps, ect. ect. are not.
post #84 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal View Post
20 k would be too high. And it would be the your income plus MI minus your income/2.

So if you made 5k and the min was 20k your bonus would be 20k minus 5k equals 15k divded by 2 equals your gov. doll of 7.5k added to your earned money of 5k equals 12.5k total.

A person not working at all would be 0 plus 20k divided by 2 whcih equals 10k whcih would be your total income. So even working very little would still beat not working at all. And I don't think you would make getting a MI contingent on working at all. Right now SSI, welfare, foodstamps, ect. ect. are not.

Ok, that makes more sense. I just tossed out the $20K as a baseline to give me something to work with. Still not sure how I feel about this vs minimum wage, but it is interesting.
post #85 of 160
thanks, answers my question as well.
post #86 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post
I know you are but what am I.

Piob brings the lol
post #87 of 160
Anyway, what age would this kick in? Would people with children get more? Is this income taxable? This would obviously require higher tax rates, which we would pass on to business because they're the ones benefiting from (significantly?) lowering wages for their laborers. I'm not sure the right would be ok with this.
post #88 of 160
This is a good thread. Thanks for bumping it. I read back through and I noticed GDL was the only person to advocate both the Minimum Wage and Minimum Income at the same time. Can somebody shoot this down for me? Otherwise, as JM stated above, what would the incentive be to actually take a crap job that paid little when you knew you were going to get the cash anyway?
post #89 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBrown85 View Post
Anyway, what age would this kick in? Would people with children get more? Is this income taxable?

This would obviously require higher tax rates, which we would pass on to business because they're the ones benefiting from (significantly?) lowering wages for their laborers. I'm not sure the right would be ok with this.

18. Maybe. No.

Remember, this would mean no more welfare, SSI, food stamps, and so on and thus no administration of those programs.
post #90 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambo View Post
This is a good thread. Thanks for bumping it.

I read back through and I noticed GDL was the only person to advocate both the Minimum Wage and Minimum Income at the same time. Can somebody shoot this down for me? Otherwise, as JM stated above, what would the incentive be to actually take a crap job that paid little when you knew you were going to get the cash anyway?

b/c even a crap job would equal more money than no job at all. And b/c people want to work, by and large.
Also if the McCrap job had such a low wage that no one would work for it they would.....be forced to raise the wage!
Market forces for the win!
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