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Minimum wage or minimum guaranteed income?

post #1 of 160
Thread Starter 
Which do you prefer, or do you prefer neither, and why? Obviously, the question is a bit vague as the design of the system and minimum levels are not determined, so do the best you can.
post #2 of 160
Matt - you really should be an M&A banker specializing in spin-offs and split-offs.
post #3 of 160
Major flaw in the poll - no "both" option. That would be my choice - they're not mutually exclusive
post #4 of 160
I prefer the minimum guaranteed income, IF AND ONLY IF it is accompanied by the complete abolition of the rest of the welfare state. Since that will never happen, I don't support the MGI.

This is like the VAT v. income tax switcheroo. "Oh, it makes so much more sense to tax consumption rather than savings." Sure it does! But anyone who thinks that we will get a VAT and lose the rest is a fool.

Similarly, if the political debate ever gets far enough along to where we approach majority support for minimum income, it will be promised as a replacement for other welfare spending, but in fact will be enacted with no cuts in the rest at all. Indeed, the rest will keep growing faster than the economy and faster than inflation.

History is a ratchet, and the End is the Universal and Homogeonous State.
post #5 of 160
What Manton said.
post #6 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post
I prefer the minimum guaranteed income, IF AND ONLY IF it is accompanied by the complete abolition of the rest of the welfare state. Since that will never happen, I don't support the MGI.

This is like the VAT v. income tax switcheroo. "Oh, it makes so much more sense to tax consumption rather than savings." Sure it does! But anyone who thinks that we will get a VAT and lose the rest is a fool.

Similarly, if the political debate ever gets far enough along to where we approach majority support for minimum income, it will be promised as a replacement for other welfare spending, but in fact will be enacted with no cuts in the rest at all. Indeed, the rest will keep growing faster than the economy and faster than inflation.

History is a ratchet, and the End is the Universal and Homogeneous State.

+1
post #7 of 160
in the ideal situation neither, frankly government should not be involved many thingsand if i had a choice governtm would remove it slef entirly form many area of life and the economy.
but since governemt control is here to stay, my choice would be a minimum wage, that is is supportd by social services adequate to maintain to keep the masses in healthy feed and content. the problem with a a minimum salary is many people work more than one job so in order to do that most governemt would have to leave facist model which is currently used, and use a socialist model to control annual salary.
plus assuming the avrega person works roughly between 35-40 a week, an annual minimu salary r minumu wage would cem out to the same thing. the minimum wage in theory creates less paperwork.
post #8 of 160
that is communist rhetoric right there.
post #9 of 160
I'm confused by your point scarphe. Minimum guaranteed income =/= minimum salary.
post #10 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by superfans124 View Post
that is communist rhetoric right there.
Where? Get your shotgun!
post #11 of 160
I undertsand why minimum income is more libertarian than min wage, but it still seems odd that it's sorta a pet cause for a select bunch of libertaians. And isn't it a whole hell of a lot bigger,more intrusive and more expensive than our current welfare system? I just see a disconect, plus setting aside medicare/medicad and Social Security, I don't really have a problem with welfare in the US.
post #12 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by gdl203 View Post
I'm confused by your point scarphe. Minimum guaranteed income =/= minimum salary.

to an extent yes, but the modes in which each is inacted would be different.

minimum salary
would work wrok but eh governemt would have to take more cotnrol of the ecoenomy or create a huge beaucratic mess. more socialism basically.
a person would have to be guarantedd one full time job. to make the system work
one could proabably eliminate social beneit programs

minimum wage
the idea is more fascist in nature and doe n require a huge overhall of the economy. not much beaucracy is created.
people can still work many jobs.
a social benefits net would be needed.
but the end result would be that a person working torughly roughly35-40 hours under both ideas would have roughly the same standard of living, spcietal strcuture needs to change for boath ideas though.
post #13 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruben View Post
I undertsand why minimum income is more libertarian than min wage, but it still seems odd that it's sorta a pet cause for a select bunch of libertaians.

And isn't it a whole hell of a lot bigger,more intrusive and more expensive than our current welfare system?
I just see a disconect, plus setting aside medicare/medicad and Social Security, I don't really have a problem with welfare in the US.

Well, there's the thing. All my knowledge of economics, albiet limited, says it will be cheaper. Take food stamps as an example. Under this MI system, they will be (or damn well should be) eliminated. Now, you do realize there is a whole black market where food stamps are sold for cash, with the people doing the conversion, skimming off a very material portion of the value? If you just gave people cash for food, they could decide how to use it, thus saving the cost of conversion on the black market.

Food stamps is just a good example; they are myriad.
post #14 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruben View Post
I undertsand why minimum income is more libertarian than min wage, but it still seems odd that it's sorta a pet cause for a select bunch of libertaians.

And isn't it a whole hell of a lot bigger,more intrusive and more expensive than our current welfare system?
I just see a disconect, plus setting aside medicare/medicad and Social Security, I don't really have a problem with welfare in the US.

how any of these ideas could be considered libertarian is beyond me. they both represent soemthing that the positions opposes.
post #15 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post
Where? Get your shotgun!
I lol'd in the office, almost spat green tea all over my laptop.
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