Weight Loss + Muscle Gain = Possible?

warlok1965 · Jul 8, 2009

Look closer.

why · Jul 8, 2009

Like I said, reading is fun.

Robert · Jul 8, 2009

whatever why

bigchris1313 · Jul 8, 2009

Originally Posted by why

Like I said, reading is fun.

You magnificent bastard!

union1411 · Sep 2, 2009

since the responses in this thread are somewhere between terrible and horrible, i'll share with you actual facts, not what's in the rest of this thread. From Lyle McDonald:

Ok, since this seems to come up with some regularity, here are my thoughts on it. I had made a post to mfw a long time bck but it's faster to just retype it here than try to dig through google groups. The basic question that continues to come up is "How come newbies can gain muscle and lose fat but more advanced guys can't." First and foremost, I want to point out that only fat newbies can accomplish this, lean guys are not going to lean out significantly while gaining muscle. And I think this points us partly in the right direction. Way back when, when I first got on the track of leptin (oh, about 98 I think), a lot of what leptin was doing (and note that leptin is related to bodyfat levels) seemed to explain at least part of this. Leptin turned out to be the big missing middle puzzle piece that I"d been looking for for about 10 years. So consider a fat untrained individual. Because of all of the bodyfat they are carrying, there are a bunch of adapations that have occurred which, given the right stimulus, is going to make them *more effectively* mobilize fat for fuel. I know I"ve discussed this before but now expect a zillion and one questions. But when you look at that actual adaptations in terms of whole body (especially fat cell) insulin resistance, it's clear that they occur in an attempt to limit further fat gain/help with fat loss once the excess calories are removed. The fat cells are resistant to insulin (meaning insulin can't be anti-lipolytic) leptin would be limiting food intake if the brain weren't resistant, leptin is trying to push ***** acid oxidation (except that muscle is alos resistant), there are tons of ***** acids n the bloodstream just waiting to be burned, &c. So even in the face of high insulin or whatever, ***** acids can be mobilize for fuel. Read that last sentence again, especially given the role of insulin in muscle growth. So I think that's the first part of the story. The body is primed to use a lot of fat for fuel under those conditions. Going back to 98, this is actually what led me to leptin, trying to figure out why fatter people can lose fat with less LBM loss compared to lean. So I started looking at the differences physiologically in fat people vs. lean people. And kept coming back to leptin (which I'd been deliberately ignoring for years). Which turns out to be part (but certainly not the entire picture). But I digress. But it's not the whole story. The other part of it and at this point I get way off into speculation land I think has to do with being relatively more untrained. Everybody knows that beginners respond better to training than anybody else. Primarily because they are so far from their genetic potential. They have more 'room to grow' to put it one way. This is true of everything, first year of any training is when you will make the most massive gains, unless you're training is marsupialed. And as you get closer to your genetic limits, things start to level off and you reach an asymptote. And I think that the two factors together are what allow it to happen. You're in a situation where a. muscle can be gained quite easily b. fat can be lost quite easily Because both are so far below (in the case of muscle) or above (in the case of fat) genetic limits. That's on top of all the hormonal/energetic stuff going on when you're fat. The body is trying to push ***** acids away from storage and towards fat oxidation, even in the face of a relatively anabolic hormonal state. But a fat but trained individual doesn't have both factors going no. They may have plenty of fat to lose but they don't have a ton of muscle to gain. No newbie effect. A semi-lean but muscular individual has to drop insulin to mobilize/burn fat for fuel at any effective rate. Which limits their anabolic potential (and this is ignoring all of the stuff going on in the muscle with AMPk and protien synthesis and all that crap). They can lose fat but they can't gain muscle at the same time. And, in a muscle gaining mode, you're in a net anabolic state anyhow. You can't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time for the most part. Now quit asking me about this.

http://monkeyisland.lylemcdonald.com...ad.php?t=12305

union1411 · Sep 2, 2009

Originally Posted by BoomDiggs

While my cardio has vastly improved I haven't seen the same gains on the weights. I am getting a little bit bigger, but I have been at this for almost 4 weeks and haven't seen any reasonable increases in the amount of weight that I am using.

some quick thoughts

1) If you're like 99% of the gym population, your weightlifting routine sucks and is not optimal

2) 4 weeks is nothing

3) Your diet and rest probably suck. If you're like most people, you eat too few grams of protein and you don't get 7-8 hours sleep. Everyday. Day in, day out. Muscles grow outside the gym.

why · Sep 2, 2009

Re: protein

It's often way overconsumed. Calories and training matter more when protein levels are sufficient (somewhere around 1g/kg. of body weight is enough for most people).

union1411 · Sep 2, 2009

Originally Posted by why

Re: protein It's often way overconsumed.
LOL. What does that even mean? Conclusory nonsense. 1-1.5g/lbm is fine. Have you tried eating 1.5g/lbm every day for months? I've done it and it's hard as balls to do consistently. Most people - including the average gymgoer - would be lucky to get in 1g/lbm a day consistently. There is no detriment to eating "too much" protein - if such a thing exists. But there is to eating too little.

Jumbie · Sep 2, 2009

Originally Posted by union1411

LOL. What does that even mean? Conclusory nonsense.

1-1.5g/lbm is fine. Have you tried eating 1.5g/lbm every day for months? I've done it and it's hard as balls to do consistently. Most people - including the average gymgoer - would be lucky to get in 1g/lbm a day consistently.

Learn to read.

There is no detriment to eating "too much" protein - if such a thing exists. But there is to eating too little.

Really? I'll tell the nephrologists in the hospital that.

ChiliPalmer · Sep 2, 2009

Originally Posted by union1411

There is no detriment to eating "too much" protein - if such a thing exists. But there is to eating too little.

Originally Posted by Jumbie

Really? I'll tell the nephrologists in the hospital that.
Agreed. If you are prone to kidney stones, too much protein will accelerate the growth of them.

union1411 · Sep 2, 2009

Originally Posted by Jumbie

Learn to read.
Learn to listen and not jump in with your silly internet-style jabs of nothingness.

Originally Posted by Jumbie

Really? I'll tell the nephrologists in the hospital that.
yeah, go ahead and come back to us with the startling revelations. remember to keep in context of what we're talking about and reasonable human eating, not "omg a doctor told me that if i shoot 400 million grams of protein in my eyeball i will die"

Jumbie · Sep 2, 2009

Originally Posted by union1411

Learn to listen and not jump in with your silly internet-style jabs of nothingness.
Once again, learn to read. You're ranting about 1gm/lbm which is not what was suggested.

yeah, go ahead and come back to us with the startling revelations. remember to keep in context of what we're talking about and reasonable human eating, not "omg a doctor told me that if i shoot 400 million grams of protein in my eyeball i will die"

Don't make stupid, absolute statements and I won't have to suggest otherwise then.

why · Sep 2, 2009

Originally Posted by union1411

LOL. What does that even mean? Conclusory nonsense. 1-1.5g/lbm is fine. Have you tried eating 1.5g/lbm every day for months? I've done it and it's hard as balls to do consistently. Most people - including the average gymgoer - would be lucky to get in 1g/lbm a day consistently. There is no detriment to eating "too much" protein - if such a thing exists. But there is to eating too little.
Yes, I've done it -- probably for longer than your balls have been inside your scrotum. There's many detriments to eating too much protein both from a lifestyle and physical perspective. Protein undergoing gluconeogenesis isn't a very ready source of energy for many activities that require it (however this is also not a concern for most people). It's generally just pissed out after being processed. From a lifestyle perspective, eating excess amounts of protein is obnoxious. People get obsessive over it. We've all seen (or been!) the guy who picks apart food on his plate in a restaurant in some attempt to make sure he gets all the protein out of his pasta while ingesting minimal carbs. It's ridiculous at a point. They let their one hour in the gym dictate the other 23 hours in the day, without realizing that it's all for naught.

Jumbie · Sep 2, 2009

^ Just to add one more and add to your first point - protein is a more expensive source of calories.

Not really a detriment, per se, if money is not a concern.

why · Sep 2, 2009

Originally Posted by Jumbie

^ Just to add one more and add to your first point - protein is a more expensive source of calories.

Not really a detriment, per se, if money is not a concern.

Oops, forgot to add that. Sometimes I wish I could live on nothing but grain.

Weight Loss + Muscle Gain = Possible?

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