Things you just don't get



Douglas said:

Your anecdotal argument presupposes that your personal life is relevant.

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It was just an example.

Douglas said:

The demographic argument would seem to hold more weight, what with it being rooted more in probabilities that are calculable from incontrovertible facts.

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The issue is that you're looking at the wrong probabilities, which is what I was trying to show. People aren't randomly assigned tasks, careers, lives, etc., so ignoring their decision-making in the statistics is rather silly. A person who has family in a francophone country will probably need French more than Spanish, for example. Obviously, that's a very particular example but it demonstrates what I'm saying quite clearly, I hope. The demographic argument also assumes that the usefulness of a language is measured by the size of its demographic, which simply isn't true. A look at how business is done between Asian countries and the US is enough to understand this.

Douglas said:

I don't have a problem with Latin at all - I'd much rather my kid learn Latin than French. Having taken it, I understand and agree with your points about the building blocks of language and easing the learning of other languages. Some of that relates to how Latin is taught vs. how French (and other languages) are typically taught (with a focus on speaking rather than on the components), but the fact remains that Latin also provides the Western Civ historical element, and definitely eases the learning of other Romance languages.

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I'd argue learning French, Spanish, or Italian eases learning other Romance languages more so. The structure of Latin is completely unlike its child languages, which themselves are all pretty similar. Etymological analogies can be learned from any of those, anyway. Latin is more useful for linguistics studies per se than modern languages.

Douglas said:

But when I look at private elementary schools (this is the perspective from which I was writing my overly simplistic StyleForum post), for them to only offer French seems like an anachronism to me. My own personal perspective is probably skewed by my own experiences, but having some understanding of Asian cultures (not that they are all the same) and languages would seem to tee kids up better for their future, from a language and cultural point of view, than continuing to flog French.

Of course we both probably can admit the real reason schools still teach French: because there are still a lot of French teachers around.

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I can agree there to an extent, but it's not like French teachers have much clout. A lot of reasons why it's still taught at public schools have to do with tradition.

It's likely taught at private schools so the kids don't look silly the first time they pronounce Louis Vuitton or try or order a bottle of Dom. Joking aside, really, prestige reasons are likely a large part of why it's taught at private schools -- which is ridiculous in the most proper sense of the word considering the above considerations likely play little or no part in the choice and the thought process probably doesn't go much deeper than French : Chanel :: Spanish : Burrito.

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why said:

The issue is that you're looking at the wrong probabilities, which is what I was trying to show. People aren't randomly assigned tasks, careers, lives, etc., so ignoring their decision-making in the statistics is rather silly. A person who has family in a francophone country will probably need French more than Spanish, for example. Obviously, that's a very particular example but it demonstrates what I'm saying quite clearly, I hope. The demographic argument also assumes that the usefulness of a language is measured by the size of its demographic, which simply isn't true. A look at how business is done between Asian countries and the US is enough to understand this.

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You're right of course, probabilities are dependent on whom you're talking about. In the private school example (mine), there is some probability, likely high, that little Muffy will study French literature and do a stint doing humanitarian work in Northern Africa before marrying a hedge fund manager and having his rotten children. There's also the probability that her lack of Spanish means the housekeeper can talk about what a miserable ************* she is to her friends on the cell phone right in front of her.

In the case of a public school student, the probabilities are much, much higher that they will need Spanish to understand what's going on while they're running entrees at the Macaroni Grill, than that they will need French for anything.

In my daughter's case, my hope is that she would be able to understand Asian language and culture to be able to not only conduct business from a Western-centric point of view but also understand why the business culture in other places might not be the same as it is here. In a private school environment, where you are willing to pay stupid amounts of money to get the best possible education for your child, it astounds me that a language as important as Mandarin, having as little in common with bromance languages as it does, and a different alphabet to boot, is virtually impossible to find taught at an elementary level.

I'd argue learning French, Spanish, or Italian eases learning other Romance languages more so. The structure of Latin is completely unlike its child languages, which themselves are all pretty similar. Etymological analogies can be learned from any of those, anyway. Latin is more useful for linguistics studies per se than modern languages.

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I disagree, but I haven't studied this stuff enough to have a professional opinion. I took French and Latin. Latin vastly improved my ability to read and write in English (can you imagine how ****** I was before?) and even today I find I can pick up an Italian, or Spanish, or French newspaper and at least figure out what the articles are about. It provides as useful an entry point as any to learning any Romance language... for me.

I don't know to what extent this still holds true, but as English is the international language for aviation, French is (was?) the international language for diplomacy. Cause I heard that one time. That, and the strong U.S.-France relationship in the U.S.'s formative years, must have laid the groundwork for why we have French programs in our schools. Germany probably messed up its chances with a few wars.

That said, I agree, for the vast majority of U.S. students it is silly to study French instead of Spanish.

English, the lingua franca.

The irony of it!

Everybody in science has to learn English. Suck it, foreigners!

French was the language of science back in the 19th century, then German took over for a bit. It's interesting because a lot of the jargon has French or German roots and they don't make sense unless you have a little knowledge of those languages. Everything has been English since at least WWII, unless you were a Soviet. I've had to get some Soviet journals translated, that's always fun.

Everybody in the world learns English these days. It's not just the language of science, it's become the language of diplomacy and of business and of everything else. There are multiple factors to that, which I'm too lazy to type out right now, but it mainly has to do with the British Empire, meaning that English is already spoken in such a huge array of places, and the structure of the language itself, which is incredibly flexible compared to most languages.

Everybody talks about how valuable Mandarin will be, but here's the catch: Chinese has more speakers than any other language, but they're all in China. Nobody else can really speak it, and structurally, learning Chinese is a much higher bar than learning English. The romance languages fall between the two. You can also find an English speaker just about anywhere on the planet. French is still #2 on the diversity of places where it's spoken IIRC, though it's declining, and Spanish is #3 and gaining. English is both #1 and increasing in usage, so I doubt its dominance will really be threatened anytime soon, but it's entirely reasonable to think that French will continue to decline in importance.

the british empire flourished, the spanish monarchy fell.



acidboy said:

the british empire flourished, the spanish monarchy fell.

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The sun never sets on the British Empire.



cptjeff said:

Everybody in the world learns English these days. It's not just the language of science, it's become the language of diplomacy and of business and of everything else. There are multiple factors to that, which I'm too lazy to type out right now, but it mainly has to do with the British Empire, meaning that English is already spoken in such a huge array of places, and the structure of the language itself, which is incredibly flexible compared to most languages.

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You know of any good books about that story (about English becoming the dominant language)? Seems interesting.

Science history is my own little angle on this. It shifted over for science when all the best scientists came here in and around WWII.

Everybody talks about how valuable Mandarin will be, but here's the catch: Chinese has more speakers than any other language, but they're all in China. Nobody else can really speak it, and structurally, learning Chinese is a much higher bar than learning English. The romance languages fall between the two. You can also find an English speaker just about anywhere on the planet. French is still #2 on the diversity of places where it's spoken IIRC, though it's declining, and Spanish is #3 and gaining. English is both #1 and increasing in usage, so I doubt its dominance will really be threatened anytime soon, but it's entirely reasonable to think that French will continue to decline in importance.

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I think a lot of people don't realize that China has multiple languages, and not everybody there speaks Mandarin (only 53% speak it). I've met Chinese people in the US that only have English as a common language, and they're the educated ones. Seems like they're not likely to become the world language when they're not even unified in their own country.

Same deal with India, but even less likely to share common languages.



Piobaire said:

The sun never sets on the British Empire.

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"They say the sun never sets on the British Empire... well, baby, it's setting." -Frank McCourt

Every year around this time I wonder what the fascination of Cancun is with so many Canadians. So many of my Canadian friends are busy humblebragging about pending February and March trips to Cancun resorts.



Gibonius said:

You know of any good books about that story (about English becoming the dominant language)? Seems interesting.

Science history is my own little angle on this. It shifted over for science when all the best scientists came here in and around WWII.
I think a lot of people don't realize that China has multiple languages, and not everybody there speaks Mandarin (only 53% speak it). I've met Chinese people in the US that only have English as a common language, and they're the educated ones. Seems like they're not likely to become the world language when they're not even unified in their own country.

Same deal with India, but even less likely to share common languages.

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I recommend "The Mother Tongue" by Bill Bryson for a fun look at the history and structure of English. A lot of it is around the US/British divide, but there's some fun stuff in there about how it compares to other languages.

As for Chinese, it's all the same language, just with varying pronunciations in various regions that are often radically different and thus incomprehensible to each other. The written form is universal. Chinese has very few syllables, so where they're stressed when speaking can dramatically vary the meaning. On the Chinese internet, "Grass mud horse" is a popular phrase because it's a few tonal shifts away from "****************" (if you like, you can buy plush dolls). Another reason western languages have enjoyed an advantage- pronunciation is a lot more flexible.

Also Chinese is a terrible language for the internet age. Setting aside the fact that basically all programming and IT stuff is fine in English, it is simply not an easy language to interact with digitally.

Not every Chinese use Mandarin as mother tongue, but I am pretty sure it's more like 95% to 99% speak Mandarin fluently. Learning to type in Chinese is going to be hard for non-native speaker though. This generation's Chinese (or any emerging market) is still learning English because that's where the "cool stuff happens", this will start to change by next generation, we will be in a world where the developed world don't hold as much sway as it used to be.