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post #76 of 102
This pic is great. I agree, WAYWRN could use more pics like this. Fit of clothing is only one element of an ensemble. This pic is useful for a variety of other attributes.
post #77 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by voxsartoria View Post
And when it comes to men's tailored clothing, there is no dichotomy between style and fit...having an asymmetric concentration on one or the other is like choosing which side of the mountain will serve as the base for your ascent. The closer to the top that you get, the more each quality will be elevated in tandem.

I don't disagree that they 'elevate in tandem'. However, one is easier to correct than the other and is far more learnable.
post #78 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
That's exactly the thing. I can see why you might hate the way I leave my buttondown collars unbuttoned, even though I like it. But nobody wants collar gape or other fit problems. If fit problems were not prevalent on Styleforum, I'd agree that we should spend more time debating the more debatable aspects of style. But many outfits are ruined by bad fit and never even leave the gate.

Oh, I don't hate it at all. I think it is unique and stylish.

Mike
post #79 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by MBreinin View Post
Oh, I don't hate it at all. I think it is unique and stylish.

Thank you, sir. I think it fits pretty decently, too .
post #80 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
That's exactly the thing. I can see why you might hate the way I leave my buttondown collars unbuttoned, even though I like it. But nobody wants collar gape or other fit problems. If fit problems were not prevalent on Styleforum, I'd agree that we should spend more time debating the more debatable aspects of style. But many outfits are ruined by bad fit and never even leave the gate.



An example of "bad fit" and yet very stylish with a nice combination of color and texture and accent accessories.

Fit is only a subset of style and is only used to accentuate/conceal certain bodily features.
post #81 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
I don't disagree that they 'elevate in tandem'. However, one is easier to correct than the other and is far more learnable.

Your conclusion is colored by your early jump to a top bespoke tailor, stopping enroute at MTM products from America's best maker of RTW.

Many aspects of fit cannot be adequately addressed unless (1) you have something made for you or (2) have ready and economical access to a very good alterations tailor.

In contrast, mastering certain aspects of style independent of fit is easy and accessible.

In fact, I think that if we take WAYWRN posts in their entirety, there is more that could be efficiently improved though different stylistic decisions than from retailoring. Perhaps you disagree, but then you would be wrong.

- B
post #82 of 102
^One, though, is subjective, while the other is less so.
post #83 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocHolliday View Post
^One, though, is subjective, while the other is less so.

Don't fear the subjective.

Objectivity in aesthetics is overrated.


- B
post #84 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by vitaminc View Post


An example of "bad fit" and yet very stylish with a nice combination of color and texture and accent accessories.

I don't consider that a bad fit, just an unconventional one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by voxsartoria View Post
Your conclusion is colored by your early jump to a top bespoke tailor, stopping enroute at MTM products from America's best maker of RTW.

Perhaps. But 'style' can easily cost as much as 'fit'. You might find some really stylish people out there who did not have the economic opportunity to explore a variety of sartorial options, but money certainly helps expand horizons. In contrast, conceptual understanding is free. It's easier to learn when a shoulder is too wide, or a sleeve isn't pitched right, or when a collar isn't tight enough, than to learn what makes someone else stylish in such a way that you can adopt it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by voxsartoria View Post
Many aspects of fit cannot be adequately addressed unless (1) you have something made for you or (2) have ready and economical access to a very good alterations tailor.

Generally agreed, but I think a decent alterations tailor can take you pretty close to a fit that is unobjectionable, if not exceptional. Honestly, when it comes to style, I don't think we can really learn much--we can just find different ways to express what's already there and hope we had it to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by voxsartoria View Post
In contrast, mastering certain aspects of style independent of fit is easy and accessible.

Perhaps you are simply a more astute student than I. I find it very difficult to 'master' anything in terms of style--mostly because I can't identify with any precision what makes something stylish. I can say what colors look good together, and cobble together a semi-analytical explanation, and I can talk about what patterns look good together, but none of these things add up to anything close to 'style'. 'Not ugy' is as far as learning can get me. I'm convinced the rest is left to the winds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by voxsartoria View Post
In fact, I think that if we take WAYWRN posts in their entirety, there is more that could be efficiently improved though different stylistic decisions than from retailoring. Perhaps you disagree, but then you would be wrong.

No, I agree that WAWRN posts are, umm, 'challenged', stylistically. However, I don't think you can improve them far beyond the 'not ugly' mark with mere observation and explanation. Us sartorial peons simply hover around that low bar and hope to get lucky one day out of hundred.
post #85 of 102
he's warming up. Duck and Cover!
post #86 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by vitaminc View Post
An example of "bad fit" and yet very stylish with a nice combination of color and texture and accent accessories.

Fit is only a subset of style and is only used to accentuate/conceal certain bodily features.

What you say is true, but only true if you exclude men's tailored clothes. While the historical continuity of such clothes is frayed and weakened, it is not essentially unanchored like modern casual clothing. Form and fit still have meaning, and that meaning is still part of an uninterrupted tradition.

One can certainly abandon all forms of classicism. This is, effectively, what most modern men have done for much of what they wear. History can show up deux ex machina, or be nearly absent altogether. If most men do return to...or relent to adopt...what is classic, they do so uncomfortably and unnsucessfully. Often, that lack of success is presented as a type of rebel virtue...but it usually is just ignorance or laziness. I use the word laziness pejoratively, but the word ignorance not so: I simply mean many men have no clue because the people who raised them did not teach them these things.

I enjoy, respect and wear clothes other than tailored clothes. And style certainly is a far broader construct than tailored clothes...just think of all the wonderful clothing that is not in the Euro-Atlantic tradition.

But, if we are talking about tailored clothes...jackets, trousers, suits, etc...fit is an elemental part of this form of dress.

- B
post #87 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by yachtie View Post
he's warming up. Duck and Cover!

I'm giving it a shot.

Wish me luck.


- B
post #88 of 102
I generally like the look, but I can't get past the clip-on suspenders. The other issues that have been pointed out don't bother me as much.
post #89 of 102
I am glad I missed this thread
post #90 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by voxsartoria View Post
There is no dichotomy between style and fit...having an asymmetric concentration on one or the other is like choosing which side of the mountain will serve as the base for your ascent. The closer to the top that you get, the more each quality will be elevated in tandem.

- B

Whoa.
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