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Motorcycles - Page 224

post #3346 of 4654
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SplasH View Post


You're just lacking humility. What you're saying is that after 45 hours of training, 15 of them in class you're good to go on any bike as long as practice in a parking lot ?

No, that's not what I said. I said that you're "good to go" (in your words) on a bike that you feel comfortable with AFTER you've at least taken a MSF course (or similar course). A bike that you feel confident handling and that isn't "terrifying" (as others have said). (Why would anyone buy a bike that they were "terrified" of or "terrified" to ride?) I felt completely comfortable with my choice of bike. I felt comfortable with the weight, the speed, the throttle response, etc. I was completely confident with all of those things. As I said, and I'll reiterate, if you're not comfortable with a bike you shouldn't get it. I was and I HAD experience with a bike before I bought my first bike.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SplasH View Post

And after that you attack the other's arguments on experience ?

Yes. If you don't have ANY experience or have been taught how to ride by your dad or your pappy or haven't been to any formal training class you're a recipe for disaster. Formal training classes will move someone with no experience to someone with approximately 6 months - 1.5 years of experience just from taking the class. That's a lot more experience than none. NEVER, and NOT ONCE did I EVER say that someone with no experience should get on ANY bike and start riding. EVER. I NEVER said that in this thread or EVER in my entire life.

I clearly stated that AFTER someone has had FORMAL TRAINING and IS / WAS familiar with riding a motorcycle that they could then purchase THE BIKE OF THEIR CHOICE, whether that be a Ninja 250 or a Harley Sportster or even a Duece or a BMW 800 of Honda touring 1100 or something of that nature. If they are confident of their skills and are comfortable with the bike then I see no reason why they shouldn't get one and ride it.

I NEVER SAID that they should ride aggressively, out of control, speed, outside of their limits, etc. NEVER ONCE did I say anything like that.

Please re-read the paragraph above several times so you can be clear on what I'm saying.

I still haven't heard you recommend any classes or formal training. Do you have any?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SplasH View Post

If you had ridden on smaller bikes you would know the difference acceleration control make, and actually how to apprehend a newer, bigger bike. I maintain that you just got lucky.

I see you still didn't read my posts. I can't force you to do that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SplasH View Post

As for under or over 750cc, displacement is not really the matter, my brother's 250cc two stroke engined RGV i have in my garage is way harder to ride correctly and to 100% than my 1000cc is. It's just a matter of big / powerful bikes against experience of what to do with those HP.

Large displacement motorcycles are involved in less accidents than lower displacement bikes. However, people with NO TRAINING are involved in over 90% of motorcycle accidents. Why? Because they have NO TRAINING OR EXPERIENCE. I NEVER said that someone should be riding a bike that their not comfortable with or without any experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SplasH View Post

Edit : 40% of accidents on a motorcycle are by motorists over their head with confidence. Usually happens around 6 months after getting the license.

Where are you getting that statistic? From the Hurt Report? Just curious.
Edited by Tck13 - 8/16/13 at 9:44pm
post #3347 of 4654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurston Bros View Post

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post #3348 of 4654
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarioImpemba View Post

 

Can you please bring your website into the 21st century so I can easily browse your catalog?


...LOL..  Give it some time...  There are some great jackets on that site...

post #3349 of 4654

Jesus Christ, can you please start debating religion or politics or something equally pointless next? No one is changing their mind here. Move along...

 

My insurance agent couldn't find me a cheaper moto insurance, so I just bit the bullet and renewed for $540. Shiest.

 

Anyone ever deal with or know anything about these guys: http://www.mdicarbonfiber.com/store/

post #3350 of 4654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurston Bros View Post

...LOL..  Give it some time...  There are some great jackets on that site...

 

Indeed, there is some awesome stuff on there, which is why it's so frustrating biggrin.gif

post #3351 of 4654
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarioImpemba View Post

Why denim on the bike and not just leathers? Don't want to change when you get somewhere or walk around in bike leather?
I do eventually want to only ride on the track and plan to get leathers for next riding season. But I need black jeans anyway and figure it would be nice to have a pair I could wear anywhere, including on the bike for grocery runs or whatever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epb View Post

There's a thread in the Streetwear and Denim forum about kevlar jeans, ya know: http://www.styleforum.net/t/61010/motorcycle-jeans-project/60#post_6538226

I don't think anyone's found that holy grail of motorcycle jeans, subtle ones. As I mention in the other thread, my play was to get Draggin Kevlar underwear and add knee armor, which protects me while letting me wear anything.

I only check 4-5 threads on here... the RHET thread (basically the weight lifting thread), the WYHI thread, the funny gif thread and this one. SW&D is a miserable place. I stopped coming here for fashion years ago. I will check this link out though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tck13 View Post

I was never in "over my head".
I haven't backpedaled at all. Unfortunately, what I have done is defend what I wrote against others (like yourself) filling in spaces with things that I didn't say or mean. If someone feels completely comfortable on a larger bike then I don't see why they shouldn't get one. If one's not comfortable with it than they shouldn't do it. I was completely comfortable with what I did.

Also, someone with no experience should start out taking a MSF course (or a similar course) and learn about riding and handling a bike and make sure that they even LIKE riding a motorcycle or it's something that they can even physically do. I've stated that from the start. That's nice of you to put words into my mouth though. Once again, that's not backpedaling, it's not letting you take liberties with what I said.

How long have the two of you been riding and how did you start out? Anyone that started riding later in life (as in after 18 yo.)? Have either of you taken the MSF (or similar) courses?
I have been riding for 2 yrs. I started on my Ninja 650. I did the MSF course before I rode the bike. Now that I have room and time I do drills and I am pretty comfortable getting the bike leaned over and all that shit. I made a lot of stupid choices and have gone down more than I want to admit (mainly early in my riding career)... and have had some close calls due solely to me being too aggressive and being unable to manage my bike's speed. I would say now I am decent on the bike; maybe 20-30% of the way to being a legitimately good rider (no track time yet, only about 10K miles ridden)

Here is the thing with sportbikes and the people who feel like they need to start riding on them. Sport bikes require people who know what they are doing to be legitimately ridden safely (not luckily). At the minimum, someone who has the muscle memory of shit like shifting, braking, countersteering etc (which would come from the couple of months on a slow bike). And people who insist on starting on them and say 'you just have to respect the bike' are just lying to themselves to rationalize a stupid decision. "Respecting the bike" means knowing how to ride it and choosing a bike that matches your skill level. So suggesting that people should just buy whatever bike they want and see what happens because it happened to work for you is just too irresponsible to ignore. Its piss poor advice and should be pointed out as such. Sorry.
post #3352 of 4654
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool The Kid View Post

I do eventually want to only ride on the track and plan to get leathers for next riding season. But I need black jeans anyway and figure it would be nice to have a pair I could wear anywhere, including on the bike for grocery runs or whatever.
I only check 4-5 threads on here... the RHET thread (basically the weight lifting thread), the WYHI thread, the funny gif thread and this one. SW&D is a miserable place. I stopped coming here for fashion years ago. I will check this link out though.
I have been riding for 2 yrs. I started on my Ninja 650. I did the MSF course before I rode the bike. Now that I have room and time I do drills and I am pretty comfortable getting the bike leaned over and all that shit. I made a lot of stupid choices and have gone down more than I want to admit (mainly early in my riding career)... and have had some close calls due solely to me being too aggressive and being unable to manage my bike's speed. I would say now I am decent on the bike; maybe 20-30% of the way to being a legitimately good rider (no track time yet, only about 10K miles ridden)

Your wearing jeans when you ride? You are now comfortable "getting the bike leaned over and shit"? Plus, you say that your bike riding involves "me being too aggressive" and "being unable to manage my bike's speed"? Finally, your "20-30% of the way"...?

Maybe you should take your own advice and get a smaller bike.

Not that you read it but I did mention that I would recommend my advice for getting a bigger bike if you can handle it should be used "sparingly". That advice wouldn't pertain to you. No offense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool The Kid View Post

Here is the thing with sportbikes and the people who feel like they need to start riding on them. Sport bikes require people who know what they are doing to be legitimately ridden safely (not luckily). At the minimum, someone who has the muscle memory of shit like shifting, braking, countersteering etc (which would come from the couple of months on a slow bike). And people who insist on starting on them and say 'you just have to respect the bike' are just lying to themselves to rationalize a stupid decision. "Respecting the bike" means knowing how to ride it and choosing a bike that matches your skill level. So suggesting that people should just buy whatever bike they want and see what happens because it happened to work for you is just too irresponsible to ignore. Its piss poor advice and should be pointed out as such. Sorry.

This is getting fucking ridiculous. Please quote where I said this. I'm sorry you can't understand what I'm posting or what I've said. Actually, I can see why you wouldn't understand what I said.
Edited by Tck13 - 8/16/13 at 9:46pm
post #3353 of 4654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tck13 View Post


No, that's not what I said. I said that you're "good to go" (in your words) on a bike that you feel comfortable with AFTER you've at least taken a MSF course (or similar course). A bike that you feel confident handling and that isn't "terrifying" (as others have said). (Why would anyone buy a bike that they were "terrified" of or "terrified" to ride?) I felt completely comfortable with my choice of bike. I felt comfortable with the weight, the speed, the throttle response, etc. I was completely confident with all of those things. As I said, and I'll reiterate, if you're not comfortable with a bike you shouldn't get it. I was and I HAD experience with a bike before I bought my first bike.
Yes. If you don't have ANY experience or have been taught how to ride by your dad or your pappy or haven't been to any formal training class you're a recipe for disaster. Formal training classes will move someone with no experience to someone with approximately 6 months - 1.5 years of experience just from taking the class. That's a lot more experience than none.
 

 

I think you are missing the point.  Many  new riders think they are comfortable, especially after riding in a parking lot.  Problem is the world is not a parking lot.

 

Without any real world experience, formal training will move someone with no experience to about 2 months experience tops (vs a new rider with books that rides say 3 days a week).  You are fooling yourself if you think it is any more. 

 

I learned to ride in the days before slipper clutches so rev matching while downshifting was important, esp on damp roads.  Chirp that back wheel when dew is on the street and you will end up on the street.  Won't learn that in the parking lot. 

Learning to blip the throttle with the thumb and the index finger while simultaneously working the clutch with your middle and ring finger takes time and plenty practice.  Won't learn that in the parking lot because there is no need for it.

 

Learning how to handle a decreasing radius turn is another thing that won't happen in the parking lot. Hell handling curves in general is out

 

Now learning all this on a bike that can hit over 60 mph in first gear with only 1/4 twist of the throttle is pretty dumb.  Parking lots are for making sure you can modulate your clutch and for practicing not looking down at your hands and feet while attempting to ride.  Oh and getting used to hundreds of pounds between your legs.  But even after all that most newbies will still drop his/her bike at a red light, a stop sign, in front of his house, etc.  You won't get used to the weight until you really ride.  So why bog a new rider down with an excessively heavy motorcycle?  Why try to learn on a bike that makes more power than he/she can fathom much less control?  Pretty dumb.  And to advise anyone to do so is assinine at best.  IMHO of course


Edited by Rumpelstiltskin - 8/16/13 at 10:16pm
post #3354 of 4654
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epb View Post

Couldn't part of that correlation be the universal practice of recommending smaller-displacement bikes by professional trainers? I'd lay odds that in the courses you took, not once did an instructor say "Ride whatever you want, long as your comfortable."

Sure they did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epb View Post

It's friends and family that push for starting on larger bikes, using pretty much the same rationales you've been arguing against.

No, it's idiots that push people for starting on bikes that the rider can't handle. That's called peer pressure. NEVER have I said that anyone should get anything that someone else pressures them into getting and never did I say that someone should buy a bike that doesn't feel comfortable or that they don't feel like they can't handle. Please quote me if you think I did. If not than stop attributing such ignorant bullshit to me. I never said it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpelstiltskin View Post

I think you are missing the point.  Many  new riders think they are comfortable, especially after riding in a parking lot.  Problem is the world is not a parking lot.

You're right in that there are some arrogant people out there that are cocky with their abilities. Each rider has to know their own experience. I knew mine despite people on here telling me I didn't. I know myself better than anyone on the interwebzzz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epb View Post

Without any real world experience, formal training will move someone with no experience to about 2 months experience tops (vs a new rider with books that rides say 3 days a week).  You are fooling yourself if you think it is any more. 

We'll have to agree to disagree about that. I read what I posted on the MSF site somewhere or on my motorcycle insurance or something like that. Unfortunately I can't find it to quote it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epb View Post

I learned to ride in the days before slipper clutches so rev matching while downshifting was important, esp on damp roads.  Chirp that back wheel when dew is on the street and you will end up on the street.  Won't learn that in the parking lot. 

I remember going over things like that in my class and actually practicing it. Although, the MSF course has gotten a lot more laid back since I've gone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epb View Post

Learning to blip the throttle with the thumb and the index finger while simultaneously working the clutch with your middle and ring finger takes time and plenty practice.  Won't learn that in the parking lot because there is no need for it.

?
Quote:
Originally Posted by epb View Post

Learning how to handle a decreasing radius turn is another thing that won't happen in the parking lot. Hell handling curves in general is out

I remember going over this stuff quite clearly. Perhaps classes are different? We actually had training in the rain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epb View Post

Now learning all this on a bike that can hit over 60 mph in first gear with only 1/4 twist of the throttle is pretty dumb. 

Absolutely. Especially if you're not familiar with a bike or the way it handles. Once again, I never said that you should buy a Hayabusa or even an R1 as a first bike. My bike was a Sportster twin basically. So, a quarter turn on the throttle was quite a bit different from turning the throttle on a 1000cc sportbike. Different torque and all of that. Which, actually, if you go back and read the original posting it says that they can be good bikes for beginners (cruisers - not sportbikes).
Quote:
Originally Posted by epb View Post

Parking lots are for making sure you can modulate your clutch and for practicing not looking down at your hands and feet while attempting to ride.  Oh and getting used to hundreds of pounds between your legs.  But even after all that most newbies will still drop his/her bike at a red light, a stop sign, in front of his house, etc.  You won't get used to the weight until you really ride.  So why bog a new rider down with an excessively heavy motorcycle?  A bike that makes more power than he/she can fathom much less control?

Parking lots are for testing every aspect of a bike whether it's your first or fifth bike. If you've read the Hurt Report you'll know that accidents are very common even amongst riders with a lot of experience when they're riding and unfamiliar bike.
post #3355 of 4654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tck13 View Post

You're right in that there are some arrogant people out there that are cocky with their abilities. Each rider has to know their own experience. I knew mine despite people on here telling me I didn't. I know myself better than anyone on the interwebzzz.

I haven't seen a person display a poorer grasp of irony since Alanis Morrisette.
post #3356 of 4654
Quote:
I NEVER SAID that they should ride aggressively, out of control, speed, outside of their limits, etc. NEVER ONCE did I say anything like that.

Please re-read the paragraph above several times so you can be clear on what I'm saying.

 

What you keep missing (voluntarily or not) is that any new rider, on any new bike, will not know where its limits are.

 

Quote:
I still haven't heard you recommend any classes or formal training. Do you have any?

No because that's irrelevant. I have not taken it myself, but loving the book and the dvd he made, i would say a course like the one from Keith Code is a good idea : http://www.superbikeschool.com/curriculum/the-levels.php I've taken similar courses, and yes it makes a difference.

 

Also any course that teach you how to set up the suspensions and more generally take care of your bike is another good idea.

post #3357 of 4654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tck13 View Post

Sure they did.

 

Pisspoor instructors then

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tck13 View Post

No, it's idiots that push people for starting on bikes that the rider can't handle. That's called peer pressure. NEVER have I said that anyone should get anything that someone else pressures them into getting and never did I say that someone should buy a bike that doesn't feel comfortable or that they don't feel like they can't handle. Please quote me if you think I did. If not than stop attributing such ignorant bullshit to me. I never said it.

 

If you are a new rider you have no friggin clue what feels good or what you can or cannot handle.  You are new.  You have no idea wha the bike can or cannot do much less what you can or cannot do.  How many times have you heard a potential rider say "I drive fast cars so I need a fast bike"?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tck13 View Post

You're right in that there are some arrogant people out there that are cocky with their abilities. Each rider has to know their own experience. I knew mine despite people on here telling me I didn't. I know myself better than anyone on the interwebzzz.

 

A new rider doesn't know jack shit.  Sorry.  Cimmon sense doesn't even factor in. For example, you are a new rider and you think you have come into a corner too hot.  Your first impulse is to:

  1. grab a handful of front brake
  2. grab a handful of rear brake
  3. modulate both brakes
  4. stay even on the throttle, lean more ride straight through

 

Without any real road experience 99.999% of new riders will choose 1 through 3....and end up in someone's yard or in someone's tree.  Most riders do not even approach the handling limits of the bikes they ride.  I would speculate that no new rider comes anywhere near to reaching their bike's handling limits.

 

 

Quote:

We'll have to agree to disagree about that. I read what I posted on the MSF site somewhere or on my motorcycle insurance or something like that. Unfortunately I can't find it to quote it.

 

MSF class provides you enough to know the basic operation of a motorcycle.  It doesn't teach you how to ride

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tck13 View Post

I remember going over things like that in my class and actually practicing it. Although, the MSF course has gotten a lot more laid back since I've gone.
 

 

You go over it but it doesn't become second nature until you have actual road experience

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tck13 View Post

?

 

Are you saying you cannot blip the throttle and pull the clutch at the same time?  Really?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tck13 View Post

I remember going over this stuff quite clearly. Perhaps classes are different? We actually had training in the rain.

 

It's the difference between theoretical and practical applications.  Having class in the rain is mch different than riding IN the rain. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tck13 View Post

Absolutely. Especially if you're not familiar with a bike or the way it handles. Once again, I never said that you should buy a Hayabusa or even an R1 as a first bike. My bike was a Sportster twin basically. So, a quarter turn on the throttle was quite a bit different from turning the throttle on a 1000cc sportbike. Different torque and all of that. Which, actually, if you go back and read the original posting it says that they can be good bikes for beginners (cruisers - not sportbikes).

 

People were clearly talking about the ninja 300 as a first bike and you said it was too small (although I suspect you still could learn something on that baby ninjette...we all probably could).  Last time I checked the Ninja 250/300 was a sportbike.  And yo mentioned somethign earlier about size so let's address that as well:

 

  Ninja 300 Ninja 636 Ninja 1000 (zx-10)
       
length 79.3" 82.1" 81.7"
width 28.1" 27.8" 28.1"
seat height 30.9" 32.7" 32"
wheelbase 55.3" 54.9" 56.1"
weight 379.3 lbs 423.4 lbs 436.6 lbs
       

 

So basically the 300, the 600 and the 1000 are physically damn near the same size but weigh differently.  The 1000 is 2 inches longer than the 300 (note teh 600 is longer than the 1000) yet the same width with a slightly longer wheelbase.  I bet Honda and Suzuki will have similar numbers.  So much for the "it's too small" argument

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tck13 View Post

Parking lots are for testing every aspect of a bike whether it's your first or fifth bike. If you've read the Hurt Report you'll know that accidents are very common even amongst riders with a lot of experience when they're riding and unfamiliar bike.

 

I guess we have to agree to disagree.  It is quite difficult to replicate real world experience in a parking lot even when you have real world experience.  If you have no real world experience it is damn near impossible to do so.

 

I don't have ill thought for anyone and I wish you the best but I don't think you are as good of a rider that you think you are.  I just hope and pray you learn from this e-thrashing and keep your "advice" to yourself.  A failure on a bike is more than a boo boo on your knee and some public embarrassment.  The wrong advice to a newbie can send someone to the morgue


Edited by Rumpelstiltskin - 8/17/13 at 4:04am
post #3358 of 4654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tck13 View Post

Your wearing jeans when you ride? You are now comfortable "getting the bike leaned over and shit"? Plus, you say that your bike riding involves "me being too aggressive" and "being unable to manage my bike's speed"? Finally, your "20-30% of the way"...?

Maybe you should take your own advice and get a smaller bike.

Yes, I was way too aggressive and unable to manage my bike's speed WHEN I FIRST STARTED RIDING. Now I am comfortable and confident on the bike, after having had the couple of months and thousands of miles needed to get the muscle memory and learn the bike's limits. Something that would have come even faster on a smaller bike.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tck13 View Post

Not that you read it but I did mention that I would recommend my advice for getting a bigger bike if you can handle it should be used "sparingly". That advice wouldn't pertain to you. No offense.
What the fuck does this even mean? If you get a bike that is beyond your skill level you should "use it" (as in tap into whatever potential it has beyond your skill level) NEVER.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tck13 View Post

This is getting fucking ridiculous. Please quote where I said this. I'm sorry you can't understand what I'm posting or what I've said. Actually, I can see why you wouldn't understand what I said.

I laid it out already. You blasted the notion that people should start on small bikes and then posted your experience of starting on an R1 as an example of someone surviving starting out on a big bike. And now you are trying to act like that's what you didn't do despite it all being on the record here.

Bottom line folks have their whole lives to ride... a couple of months or a year on a 250-500 won't hurt anybody and calling such advice stupid (which you did) or suggesting that starting on an R1 is fine (which you did) is terrible, irresponsible advice, period, and representative of a rider more concerned with... ego? image? than safety and actually being a good, skilled, competent rider. Such a person should not be offering riding advice. Don't take it personally
post #3359 of 4654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpelstiltskin View Post



It looks like it would suit you perfectly Trini


DAMN SON HOW YOU GON DO ME LIKE DAT?

I'm not even wearing a flannel shirt or Bell 500 helmet in that pic shog[1].gif
post #3360 of 4654
This whole "what bike should a newbie get, and why?" discussion has been hashed and rehashed here many times. None of you are breaking any new ground.
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