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post #5461 of 14938
8/17/11 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by burningbright View Post


Yeah, that's just a tu quoque argument that really doesn't have any basis for what I'm talking about. I'm addressing the made in large factories by underpaid workers often subject to dangerous work conditions when I mean Made in China. I'm well aware of the history of the chino and it would be one thing if the RRL line was saying, "yeah, these $200 chinos are hand-made by Chinese artisans who have been making chinos for a 100 years so we want to make sure they get a fair wage," but what I gather is that the case is more the former than the latter.

Like I said, I appreciate the aesthetic of RRL, I just want to see the breakdown of the cost and how much is going into QC and the wages of the worker versus how much is lining the pockets of corporate RL.

dig through their balance sheet, and you can "possibly" back it out for some "average" number.. you can never find that out those exact number for any product regardless where. Even the manufacture themselves would have to dig hard to be able to somehow find exactly what % of overhead and % of per quantity goes to QC alone for example.

Most of the made in china textile are made near the coastal area of China. In that case they're better paid compare to the rest of South East Asia and wages have been going up for a while now. I have no idea about working condition, but most of the well known abuse are coming from tech manufacture (not child labor in that case, just over work labor). The only reason people haven't moved to Vietnam or Cambodia in masses is because China has better infrastructure, and can produce larger quantities faster, and probably "better". I.e. they specialize in that particular production technique and will squeeze every last drop to find rooms to improve, lots of small factories compete against each other.

I don't know what's the child labor situation in China though, textile is probably more susceptible than other kind of manufacture.

In the end of the day the only question I would ask is am I paying the "right" price (in my/your mind) for the quality. To me that question can only be answered by comparing to peers. If a similar product cost more and have no better quality, then I see no issue picking made in China even if that means RL makes a lot more.
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post #5462 of 14938
8/17/11 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by burningbright View Post


Yeah, that's just a tu quoque argument that really doesn't have any basis for what I'm talking about. I'm addressing the made in large factories by underpaid workers often subject to dangerous work conditions when I mean Made in China. I'm well aware of the history of the chino and it would be one thing if the RRL line was saying, "yeah, these $200 chinos are hand-made by Chinese artisans who have been making chinos for a 100 years so we want to make sure they get a fair wage," but what I gather is that the case is more the former than the latter.

Like I said, I appreciate the aesthetic of RRL, I just want to see the breakdown of the cost and how much is going into QC and the wages of the worker versus how much is lining the pockets of corporate RL.

Well, you're not going to get that info, neither do you know what workers' conditions are, nor do you have reason to suspect that there are dangerous conditions at all.. But even if a RRL commisioned Chinese factory worker is making 3 times the national average, BUT RL is still making mega profit, is there a problem with that?

Otherwise, when in doubt, don't buy.
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post #5463 of 14938
8/17/11 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmdsimpson View Post


I've stated here several times before that I find the quality of RRL made in China items to be excellent. To me, they seem to have very good quality control. In terms of quality, it has never been an issue for me. Politics are up to the individual; but you didn't ask for an opinion on that, anyway.

Thanks for the response in terms of QC; and I agree, the politics of it are up to the individual and I hope I didn't come across as trying to demonize anyone for buying RRL.

I will say one thing though and then stop because this is veering dangerously into the argumentative side of things (not where I wanted it to go).

But, I do find it ironic though that a brand, which has its aesthetic roots in western heritage wear, is mass-producing pieces in large east-Asian factories overseas in what may be exploitative conditions. Seems to be the absolute antithesis of what heritage wear is and stands for: a product that is made with collective pride and integrity on both the part of the designers who come up with the pieces and those who produce them. But who knows, maybe the Chinese workers there do feel that sense of pride and are compensated fairly for it?
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post #5464 of 14938
8/17/11 at 2:18pm
Again I don't know how textile industry is, but for some machinery/assembly kind of manufacture, China are the ones with the latest gizmo from Germany/Japan..
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post #5465 of 14938
8/17/11 at 2:26pm
And trust me they will all be ISO9XXX certified. That's how it used to work in Taiwan too (where I am from). Those certification really don't mean crap, it's ticking box (10~15 years ago anyway, not sure now)... oh and even though they might implement the latest manufacture technique, they might not care about proper procedure as much as west (at least safety procedure goes). It's a lax from both management as well and sometimes the worker themselves, as surprisingly as it sounds, some just couldn't be bothered.

As I was saying in the end of the day, QC comes from the buyer. If I order some component for building aircraft, you can be damned sure I would check quality, Now clothe is more like reputation is on the line rather than life, and from what I have seen from Polo and black label stuff wise, the made in china are proper, so far.
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post #5466 of 14938
8/17/11 at 2:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post


dig through their balance sheet, and you can "possibly" back it out for some "average" number.. you can never find that out those exact number for any product regardless where. Even the manufacture themselves would have to dig hard to be able to somehow find exactly what % of overhead and % of per quantity goes to QC alone for example.

Most of the made in china textile are made near the coastal area of China. In that case they're better paid compare to the rest of South East Asia and wages have been going up for a while now. I have no idea about working condition, but most of the well known abuse are coming from tech manufacture (not child labor in that case, just over work labor). The only reason people haven't moved to Vietnam or Cambodia in masses is because China has better infrastructure, and can produce larger quantities faster, and probably "better". I.e. they specialize in that particular production technique and will squeeze every last drop to find rooms to improve, lots of small factories compete against each other.

I don't know what's the child labor situation in China though, textile is probably more susceptible than other kind of manufacture.

In the end of the day the only question I would ask is am I paying the "right" price (in my/your mind) for the quality. To me that question can only be answered by comparing to peers. If a similar product cost more and have no better quality, then I see no issue picking made in China even if that means RL makes a lot more.

Great post clee, thanks for the response.

I guess I should have mentioned in my original post that my concerns with the Made in China aspect of things were also safety and environmentally related too. Here's one article I read last year that really opened my eyes to what may be going on in China on a larger scale than from what's just in the article:

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-04-26/world/china.denim.water.pollution_1_denim-pearl-river-factory?_s=PM:WORLD

Again, not looking to judge anyone here personally, I just want to make sure I'm getting a nicely made product that isn't at the expense of anybody else's well-being.

Not claiming to be a know-it-all either, I just want to be better informed.
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post #5467 of 14938
8/17/11 at 3:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_SFU View Post


they had some jeans. mostly 34 to 38 waist. a few pairs of weathered chinos, no overalls. a few sport jackets, some outerwear, a bunch of henleys, a few womens flannel tops. i picked up a harris tweed coat, navajo sweater, 2 henleys and some jeans. might roll back through there tomorrow on the way to Ohio.

Sounds like you did really well. There's going to be a lot more RRL available at the outlets in late Sept. and October once the mainline sales are over and they sweep all the remaining inventory to the outlet shop network.
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post #5468 of 14938
8/17/11 at 3:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by burningbright View Post


But, I do find it ironic though that a brand, which has its aesthetic roots in western heritage wear, is mass-producing pieces in large east-Asian factories overseas in what may be exploitative conditions. Seems to be the absolute antithesis of what heritage wear is and stands for: a product that is made with collective pride and integrity on both the part of the designers who come up with the pieces and those who produce them. But who knows, maybe the Chinese workers there do feel that sense of pride and are compensated fairly for it?

I'm curious about where you get your information or how you've arrived to your conclusions on the Chinese garment industry. I could be wrong but from reading your posts I get the sense that you're under the belief that "China=shoddily made goods in a sweatshop for rock-bottom prices, so why would RRL support this," right? It's an argument I see often from people who don't know the industry or have read anything about the industry aside from news reports and general opinion from about 15 years ago when the Nike kid sweatshop fiasco exploded. And people seem pretty unshakable about their beliefs on China even though they usually can't quote sources or give specific examples. There is no shortage of books on the subject if you're sincerely interested in dispelling the traditional notions on the garment industry.

But back to RRL, and to segue, you should be GLAD they're making things in China:
-There are many other labels that go to even poorer countries that are hell-bent on competing with China, where conditions are as bad as you can imagine. China has actually been losing business because their outsourced work is being further outsourced.
-The outsourcing of manufacturing in the US over the past 30-40 years makes it hard, if not impossible, for domestic factories to compete with foreign factories not only at price margins but also in skill set, output, etc. The simple fact is that there are a lot less factories and skilled workers in the US today than there were during the hey-day.
-Similarly, RRL is well known for its limited productions. Again, China makes more sense than the US in this respect not only financially but also in terms of technical aspects like lead times.
-RRL is a sort of "big" little brand. If they already had established factories capable of competent work and QA, I wouldn't necessarily understand the headaches and monetary risks involved with creating a factory from the ground up or finding a capable one domestically. It's a lot easier said than done.
-To reinforce the point that others have made, there are many sweatshops in the US. If you want to be a truly educated consumer, you should care about the factory more than geography. If you want to be a truly educated and pro-American consumer, you should care about both.
-The idea that a US worker (who said he's even a legal US citizen?) would by default take more pride, if any, in his job than another worker in another country is laughable. Does the drive thru guy at McDonalds in Miami give more of a shit than his Canadian or South African counterparts because it's an American brand?

It's not just the imagination of people on here the RRL puts out a well-made product that competes with, if not blows away, the collections from brands fabricated in first-world countries.
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post #5469 of 14938
8/17/11 at 3:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by burningbright View Post


Great post clee, thanks for the response.

I guess I should have mentioned in my original post that my concerns with the Made in China aspect of things were also safety and environmentally related too. Here's one article I read last year that really opened my eyes to what may be going on in China on a larger scale than from what's just in the article:

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-04-26/world/china.denim.water.pollution_1_denim-pearl-river-factory?_s=PM:WORLD

Again, not looking to judge anyone here personally, I just want to make sure I'm getting a nicely made product that isn't at the expense of anybody else's well-being.

Not claiming to be a know-it-all either, I just want to be better informed.

The world is putting China under microscope for whatever it does now, fairly or not fairly. Taiwan/South Korea both went through the same thing, Taiwan used to burn copper electric wire, and whatever it product just goes to the air. China, as a developing country probably pays more attention than Taiwan/South Korea at equivalent stage back then (from government regulation stand point of view, no idea about enforcement). The reason being,

1). more scrutiny, the world is not what it used to be, environment concern is a lot higher
2). they're too big to ignore, i.e. the world could lived with some small Asia country not doing "X", while it's impossible to live with China not doing "X" (X can be anything from emission control to some environmental protection treaty, etc.)
3). even China themselves realize how damaging it is, and because of the change in terms scale have happened, they were forced to recognized the issue. Beijing is subject to dust storm more often, drought/flood are happening more often in certain area. It becomes hard to ignore when it's that obvious. They do realize it's not something they can forget about it and try to fix it 20 years later.

Now none of these are "excuse" per se as in why someone shouldn't hold China to certain standard, but the reality is all the Asian country have gone from poor to rich through the same route. You can say the same about America, except that happened 150 years ago.

In terms of quality and safety
English use to laugh at Germans, European use to laugh at American, American used to laugh at Japan, to me it just sounds like same story happening again and again. If you go back to 50 years ago, the only thing Taiwan produce and export in mess are banana... then it become crappy umbrella, cheap toy, textile, refrigerator, computers to what it is now.

I know I am way off topic, so if you're interested PM me..., I am not expert in the region by any mean (I spend most of my post teenage year in US, and moved to UK recently), just been looking them for a long time, and from a different lens.

ok, let's go back to discuss some more RRL jeans, someone got slim fit raw or one wash in 28x30/32 for cheap nod[1].gif?
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post #5470 of 14938
8/17/11 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by whodini View Post


I'm curious about where you get your information or how you've arrived to your conclusions on the Chinese garment industry. I could be wrong but from reading your posts I get the sense that you're under the belief that "China=shoddily made goods in a sweatshop for rock-bottom prices, so why would RRL support this," right? It's an argument I see often from people who don't know the industry or have read anything about the industry aside from news reports and general opinion from about 15 years ago when the Nike kid sweatshop fiasco exploded. And people seem pretty unshakable about their beliefs on China even though they usually can't quote sources or give specific examples. There is no shortage of books on the subject if you're sincerely interested in dispelling the traditional notions on the garment industry.

But back to RRL, and to segue, you should be GLAD they're making things in China:
-There are many other labels that go to even poorer countries that are hell-bent on competing with China, where conditions are as bad as you can imagine. China has actually been losing business because their outsourced work is being further outsourced.
-The outsourcing of manufacturing in the US over the past 30-40 years makes it hard, if not impossible, for domestic factories to compete with foreign factories not only at price margins but also in skill set, output, etc. The simple fact is that there are a lot less factories and skilled workers in the US today than there were during the hey-day.
-Similarly, RRL is well known for its limited productions. Again, China makes more sense than the US in this respect not only financially but also in terms of technical aspects like lead times.
-RRL is a sort of "big" little brand. If they already had established factories capable of competent work and QA, I wouldn't necessarily understand the headaches and monetary risks involved with creating a factory from the ground up or finding a capable one domestically. It's a lot easier said than done.
-To reinforce the point that others have made, there are many sweatshops in the US. If you want to be a truly educated consumer, you should care about the factory more than geography. If you want to be a truly educated and pro-American consumer, you should care about both.
-The idea that a US worker (who said he's even a legal US citizen?) would by default take more pride, if any, in his job than another worker in another country is laughable. Does the drive thru guy at McDonalds in Miami give more of a shit than his Canadian or South African counterparts because it's an American brand?

It's not just the imagination of people on here the RRL puts out a well-made product that competes with, if not blows away, the collections from brands fabricated in first-world countries.



Sorry, heading out to a movie with the little lady, but I'll respond when I get back before I get lumped into the "US products rock hard core and if you buy from anywhere else you're scum" group. Thanks for your thoughts though; I do agree with a lot of what you're saying and think we're probably on the same wave length when it gets right down to it.

Be back in a few hours.
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post #5471 of 14938
8/17/11 at 3:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by burningbright View Post


Great post clee, thanks for the response.

I guess I should have mentioned in my original post that my concerns with the Made in China aspect of things were also safety and environmentally related too. Here's one article I read last year that really opened my eyes to what may be going on in China on a larger scale than from what's just in the article:

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-04-26/world/china.denim.water.pollution_1_denim-pearl-river-factory?_s=PM:WORLD

Again, not looking to judge anyone here personally, I just want to make sure I'm getting a nicely made product that isn't at the expense of anybody else's well-being.

Not claiming to be a know-it-all either, I just want to be better informed.

I actually thought from your initial post that you were only asking about quality, so sorry about posting irrelevant information; and thanks for saying it was nice, anyway.

So without being an expert on the situation, and also with much less knowledge of the facts than others here have, I personally look at this in 3 categories:

1. I think it's a myth that quality of made in China goods is necessarily lower than in the US (or in Europe, for that matter). The fact is, there are just far fewer skilled workers in the US in the textile industry than in China. I think on the very high end, where you are talking about true artisans, it might be relevant to say that X country is known for developing skilled specialists; for instance, look at UK hand made shoes. Those items are such low volume, so specialized, and so expensive, that they are not really relevant to this discussion. If you are talking about similar items made in China vs. the US, I am confident in saying that I've had many examples of made in US clothing that are of shoddy quality as compared to China (anyone remember the Mauro/Crate jeans fiasco?).

2. I think a lot of it depends on the buyer (meaning RRL - the buyer to the factory) and their quality control methods, more than it does the factories themselves. I have been very satisfied with RRL quality, which I assume is related to their quality control methods.

3. As far as work conditions, environmental issues, etc.. I am hopeful that the "too big to hide" effect applies here. China and its factories have undergone so much scrutiny that it's hard to imagine a large manufacturer using factories that are not up to Western standards. By that, I don't mean that a Chinese textile worker makes $25 per hour, like in the US, but more that they are treated fairly compared to their own living standards and cost of living.

The fact is, the cow has left the barn. This stuff is not economical to produce in the US in volume. The only way forward is to ensure that humane standards are employed in the producing factories, or else not to buy this type of clothing at all. That does not mean it's automatically humane, but it does create powerful incentives for vigilant oversight.
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post #5472 of 14938
8/17/11 at 3:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by burningbright View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by whodini View Post


I'm curious about where you get your information or how you've arrived to your conclusions on the Chinese garment industry. I could be wrong but from reading your posts I get the sense that you're under the belief that "China=shoddily made goods in a sweatshop for rock-bottom prices, so why would RRL support this," right? It's an argument I see often from people who don't know the industry or have read anything about the industry aside from news reports and general opinion from about 15 years ago when the Nike kid sweatshop fiasco exploded. And people seem pretty unshakable about their beliefs on China even though they usually can't quote sources or give specific examples. There is no shortage of books on the subject if you're sincerely interested in dispelling the traditional notions on the garment industry.

But back to RRL, and to segue, you should be GLAD they're making things in China:
-There are many other labels that go to even poorer countries that are hell-bent on competing with China, where conditions are as bad as you can imagine. China has actually been losing business because their outsourced work is being further outsourced.
-The outsourcing of manufacturing in the US over the past 30-40 years makes it hard, if not impossible, for domestic factories to compete with foreign factories not only at price margins but also in skill set, output, etc. The simple fact is that there are a lot less factories and skilled workers in the US today than there were during the hey-day.
-Similarly, RRL is well known for its limited productions. Again, China makes more sense than the US in this respect not only financially but also in terms of technical aspects like lead times.
-RRL is a sort of "big" little brand. If they already had established factories capable of competent work and QA, I wouldn't necessarily understand the headaches and monetary risks involved with creating a factory from the ground up or finding a capable one domestically. It's a lot easier said than done.
-To reinforce the point that others have made, there are many sweatshops in the US. If you want to be a truly educated consumer, you should care about the factory more than geography. If you want to be a truly educated and pro-American consumer, you should care about both.
-The idea that a US worker (who said he's even a legal US citizen?) would by default take more pride, if any, in his job than another worker in another country is laughable. Does the drive thru guy at McDonalds in Miami give more of a shit than his Canadian or South African counterparts because it's an American brand?

It's not just the imagination of people on here the RRL puts out a well-made product that competes with, if not blows away, the collections from brands fabricated in first-world countries.



Sorry, heading out to a movie with the little lady, but I'll respond when I get back before I get lumped into the "US products rock hard core and if you buy from anywhere else you're scum" group. Thanks for your thoughts though; I do agree with a lot of what you're saying and think we're probably on the same wave length when it gets right down to it.

Be back in a few hours.

Please don't. The only thing more tedious than the "made in China" political discussions are the repeated questions about how much does this pair or that stretch in the waist.
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post #5473 of 14938
8/17/11 at 4:18pm
............................................
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post #5474 of 14938
8/17/11 at 4:22pm
Ralph Lauren RRL Women's Slim Fit Red Jeans 27 x 34 $69 BIN. Would cop if in my size
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post #5475 of 14938
8/17/11 at 5:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAMOR View Post

Ralph Lauren RRL Women's Slim Fit Red Jeans 27 x 34 $69 BIN. Would cop if in my size

I really think the woman ones have lower front rise (not that other measurement would work), but check this part out

front rise: 8.25".

I would imagine it's cut to show girls' hips...
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