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The Official RRL Thread - Page 1069

post #16021 of 23495
Quote:
Originally Posted by srgprod View Post



Someone mentioned Oki as an example of great denim. Well Oki has one guy who weaves their material on a small loom that only he can maintain and use. I understand this guy is in his 90's?

It's Oni and that someone was me.

 

Frankly RRL can keep up with the demand using Japanese textiles. They choose to make the brand more mainstream and commercial and hope to attract more customers with the Cone denim and to save money in the process. Nothing wrong with saving a company money, but lets call a spade a spade.

 

I think the Cone switch will work in their favor even though it will alienate hardcore RRL enthusiasts like myself, Hoit, Dave and some others. Of course this doesn't matter to RL because they want commercial success. But the brand has been slowly going downhill and becoming somewhat too mainstream for my tastes ever since they started the website. The last thing I want is for RRL to become another Polo or Denim & Supply line.

 

If the Japanese denim is becoming too expensive or they need to find more suppliers, they can always subsidize it with all the Made in China crap they sell, right?

 

I also don't buy that Cone's one Mill can supply enough denim for RRL and tons of other USA brands, but Japan's many high quality Mills can't. I'm sure they'll always be willing to make more room for RRL.


Edited by RRL CLOTHING - 9/4/13 at 7:36pm
post #16022 of 23495
Quote:
Originally Posted by RRL CLOTHING View Post
 

It's Oni and that someone was me.

 

Frankly RRL can keep up with the demand using Japanese textiles. They choose to make the brand more mainstream and commercial and hope to attract more customers with the Cone denim and to save money in the process. Nothing wrong with saving a company money, but lets call a spade a spade.

 

I think the Cone switch will work in their favor even though it will alienate hardcore RRL enthusiasts like myself, Hoit, Dave and some others. Of course this doesn't matter to RL because they want commercial success. But the brand has been slowly going downhill and becoming somewhat too mainstream for my tastes ever since they started the website. The last thing I want is for RRL to become another Polo or Denim & Supply line.

 

If the Japanese denim is becoming too expensive or they need to find more suppliers, they can always subsidize it with all the Made in China crap they sell, right?

 

I also don't buy that Cone's one Mill can supply enough denim for RRL, but Japan's many high quality Mills can't.

good points.  many sources have mentioned that RL doesn't care if RRL becomes a profitable division, and i believe that's partially responsible for its success. 

 

now it sounds like they are aiming for more a commercial success and i fear that this is the beginning of the end for RRL.  soon people will realize the RRL is heading in a "wrong" direction and within a few years, it'll become just another brand...

 

they should really go back to their previous irreverent attitude towards profits and make up the loss from other divisions.

post #16023 of 23495
Quote:
Originally Posted by srgprod View Post

I'm with you. RRL and RL has spent years working with Cone to create custom weaves for the new denim production. I think it may take some time to get the materials right. You can't make thousands of pairs of jeans for the world using high end Japanese denim. Its too limiting. Cone is starting to work on small batch stuff so wait and see. Don't dismiss this off hand. Ralph Lauren is not going to blow it. They have too much invested in this brand.

Someone mentioned Oki as an example of great denim. Well Oki has one guy who weaves their material on a small loom that only he can maintain and use. I understand this guy is in his 90's? The Boss Jeans were made for RRL by Oki using his slack weave denim. They only made a small run. He can't make 50,000 yards of that material using these methods. Cone has been at it for a long time and they know what they're doing. The new denim may never be up to small batch Japanese standards but the jeans will certainly satisfy those folks who want a great fit and can pay the price for those unique details and workmanship.

where do you get your information from?
post #16024 of 23495
Is anyone bothered that the Denim & Supply line has a lot of cheap versions of RRL styles? It didn't look like it at first but it now seems like it's a diffusion line of RRL.
post #16025 of 23495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_SFU View Post

You probably wont like Cone for RRL then, since its 12.5oz

This is from the description of the once washed low straight from Union Made:

-100% cotton 16oz American made selvedge denim.
-This denim is woven on vintage Draper looms to a replicate a 1940's style loose weave denim that allows the light weft yarns to show through.

http://www.unionmadegoods.com/RRL_Once_Washed_Low_Straight_Jean_5333.html
post #16026 of 23495
Quote:
Originally Posted by srgprod View Post


I'm with you. RRL and RL has spent years working with Cone to create custom weaves for the new denim production. I think it may take some time to get the materials right. You can't make thousands of pairs of jeans for the world using high end Japanese denim. Its too limiting. Cone is starting to work on small batch stuff so wait and see. Don't dismiss this off hand. Ralph Lauren is not going to blow it. They have too much invested in this brand.

Someone mentioned Oni as an example of great denim. Well Oni has one guy who weaves their material on a small loom that only he can maintain and use. I understand this guy is in his 90's? The Boss Jeans were made for RRL using his slack weave Oni denim. They only made a small run. He can't make 50,000 yards of that material using these methods. Cone has been at it for a long time and they know what they're doing. The new denim may never be up to small batch Japanese standards but the jeans will certainly satisfy those folks who want a great fit and can pay the price for those unique details and workmanship.

 

The Cone denim that RRL is using is a proprietary fabric, meaning that it is developed for them and exclusive to them. You cannot compare the Cone fabric from other brands (LVC etc) to the RRL Cone fabric. srgprod is correct, the RRL design team have worked for a number of years to develop this fabric with Cone and they only moved over to it from the Japanese when they felt they had hit the correct reproduction level of the 1940's fabric it recreates. I mentioned this in a post last year after working with Cone on something else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost01 View Post
 

I'm lucky to have a bit of inside info on the switch to Cone denim.

RRL have been working with Cone for a number of seasons to develop an exclusive fabric. My understanding is that its heavier than any other stock denim they produce for all the other brands. RRL always have exclusive fabric even from their Japanese suppliers. They've also been holding off on this for a number of seasons as they felt the development wasn't good enough. It will only be used on seasonal washes with the core carrying on as the Japanese fabrics. I for one am looking forward to seeing it.

post #16027 of 23495
I also think the switch to Cone is political. RL gets enough bashing for being the all American brand where very little is actually Made in America. I suspect this is the first move in a wider strategy to move some further production over the the US. RRL is the obvious brand to do this as the production runs are so small.

Edited by Ghost01 - 9/5/13 at 3:24am
post #16028 of 23495
post #16029 of 23495
Quote:
Originally Posted by RRL CLOTHING View Post


Another trololol who never contributes anything to this thread, except to pop in every few months with some worthless asinine comments.

Someone ring?
post #16030 of 23495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kensington View Post

Is anyone bothered that the Denim & Supply line has a lot of cheap versions of RRL styles? It didn't look like it at first but it now seems like it's a diffusion line of RRL.

I had the same thought! The catalog arrived at my house yesterday. It was pretty corny. Surprised RL put out something like that, but maybe I don't know enough about the D&S brand.
post #16031 of 23495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kensington View Post

Is anyone bothered that the Denim & Supply line has a lot of cheap versions of RRL styles? It didn't look like it at first but it now seems like it's a diffusion line of RRL.

Every Ralph Lauren brand (except purple label) is somewhat of a cheap version of one of his more expensive brands. That's how they have grown to be such a big company... They saw an opportunity with a "denim" branded line at a lower price, so they are pursuing it. Ralph Lauren companywide has always lagged in the denim category. Through RRL, Black Label Denim, Denim and Supply, and the expanded denim lines at Polo Ralph Lauren, they are attacking it with a wide variety of price points. I think it is a good strategy (I say this as an investor, not as an aficionado of any particular line)
post #16032 of 23495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost01 View Post
 

 

The Cone denim that RRL is using is a proprietary fabric, meaning that it is developed for them and exclusive to them. You cannot compare the Cone fabric from other brands (LVC etc) to the RRL Cone fabric. srgprod is correct, the RRL design team have worked for a number of years to develop this fabric with Cone and they only moved over to it from the Japanese when they felt they had hit the correct reproduction level of the 1940's fabric it recreates. I mentioned this in a post last year after working with Cone on something else.

I love all the cloak and dagger bullshit that goes on in this thread.

 

Seriously every developer has "exclusively" made "1940s" Cone denim. Roy, Rising Sun, RRL, LVC, etc. Those are nothing but industry buzz words. America is incapable of producing a top tier denim like the Japanese. It's like comparing a ZR1 to an LFA.

 

This was a switch to save money. Any denim that was "specifically designed" the Japanese mills could have designed even better versions of the same denim, hands down. Any speculation that RRL broader goals are to be "Made in America" will also never happen given that the brand is becoming mass produced, unless labor here somehow becomes cheaper than in China, India, or Turkey.

 

They can't even get half the descriptions right on their website. It makes me wonder if the "team" even cares about RRL at all. Cone is good denim (More specifically White Oak.. because Cone has mills in Mexico and China that make cheap mass produced denim..) but Japanese denim is light years better. Lets just all agree to disagree.


Edited by RRL CLOTHING - 9/5/13 at 7:35am
post #16033 of 23495
Quote:
Originally Posted by RRL CLOTHING View Post
 

I love all the cloak and dagger bullshit that goes on in this thread.

 

Seriously every developer has "exclusively" made "1940s" Cone denim. Roy, Rising Sun, RRL, LVC, etc. Those are nothing but industry buzz words. America is incapable of producing a top tier denim like the Japanese. It's like comparing a ZR1 to an LFA.

 

This was a switch to save money. Any denim that was "specifically designed" the Japanese mills could have designed even better versions of the same denim, hands down. Any speculation that RRL broader goals are to be "Made in America" will also never happen given that the brand is becoming mass produced, unless labor here somehow becomes cheaper than in China, India, or Turkey.

 

They can't even get half the descriptions right on their website. It makes me wonder if the "team" even cares about RRL at all. Cone is good denim (More specifically White Oak.. because Cone has mills in Mexico and China that make cheap mass produced denim..) but Japanese denim is light years better. Lets just all agree to disagree.

I agree with you on a number of points.  I've always rated Japanese denim extremely highly and I always felt the LVC White Oak denim was pretty poor. But you talk to the LVC guys and they'll disagree. What annoys me most of all is the fanboys that instantly see Japanese Fabric and automatically believe its superior to anything other countries make without fully understanding the total picture.

 

And I'm sure price as you say was a big plus as well in the switch.

 

I have to say i like the Cone fabric RRL are using for the rigids. It will be interesting to see how they fade. But then both rigid fabrics from Japan that RRL have used in the past couple of years have faded completely differently and I prefer one over the other.

post #16034 of 23495

Yeah there is a lot of overhype with Japanese denim as well. I am strictly speaking of quality brands like Samurai, Pure Blue, Oni, Momo, etc. The stuff All Saints use, Naked and Famous, Unbranded, Gap denim, PRPS Goods and Co, it's cheap Japanese denim that can be had as little as $80, but quality is in line with the price you pay.

post #16035 of 23495
Quote:
Originally Posted by RRL CLOTHING View Post

Yeah there is a lot of overhype with Japanese denim as well. I am strictly speaking of quality brands like Samurai, Pure Blue, Oni, Momo, etc. The stuff All Saints use, Naked and Famous, Unbranded, Gap denim, PRPS Goods and Co, it's cheap Japanese denim that can be had as little as $80, but quality is in line with the price you pay.

For the money i think Momotaro (especially the Vintage line) has the best Japanese denim for a "reasonable" price. Walking into those denim stores in Ueno in Tokyo can be fucking overwhelming
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