is there any benefit to non-selvedge denim? - Page 2

the benefit to wearing non-selvedge denim is knowing that selvedge denim isn't all that fucking useful or rad and you saved money by not buying into that hype


end thread

I always set up for good stories and am always dissappointed. PS - Next time, unless the guy is just massive and scary, stick around and explain to him he should be mad at his whore of a GF and not you. It's funny, I promise.

It's a meaningless question.

Selvage started disappearing from jeans in the 1950s, by which time narrow looms were already being replaced by 50 inch inch shuttle looms. Most classic Lees have either half, or no selvage, and that's some of the most attractive denim to be found, period.

There's an interesting question in there, which is whether projectile loom denim, which never has a conventional closed selvage is inherently inferior to shuttle loom denim, which usually does. But it's almost impossible to disentangle that part of the process from the other changes that came at the same time as the introduction of projectile looms, namely the use of sulphur in the dyeing process, which usually meant less indigo, and the use of ring/oe or oe/oe yarn.

My guess is that those latter two factors are far more important in the look of denim than what loom it's made on.

Anyway, for the hell of it, thinking about the H&M jeans I have in my house from the same manufacturer, at the same price point, I would say the non-selvage is better.

When you turn the cuff up if it ain't selvage you'll get ridiculed and laughed at.

My favorite jeans at the moment are a pair of new "dark aged" 501's. My selvedge 505's and Bucklebacks havent seen sunlight in months.

Slams a guy for a "poorly worded question", then posts the monstrosity above.

the difference in quality is negligible but it's a very nice detail to have. I'd be ashamed to cuff OE jeans. not that anyone in real life even knows the difference.. plus OE unravels

whoa!

Hahahahahahahahaha, that's epic. Thanks for the coupon, by the way!

Delta lost my luggage and my 1 year old samurai was in there... sad. It really felt like I lost something of great value and yet...they are only jeans

to the OP... the benefit is it's cheaper (when comparing like to like). The wider looms make volume production easier, as fewer looms need to be run to produce the same amount of fabric.
Nothing to do with the selvage or lack thereof. That comes down strictly to the materials used. The yarns and the dye.
Leg twist comes from the skewing that happens as the denim's twill weave tightens up during shrinking, not to do with chainstitching. Think of it this way, if you had a totally square piece of raw denim, and shrunk it, it would be left slightly diamond shaped. Or in the case of a pant-leg, the vertical seams shift into a slight spiral.
(in modern production, the raw fabric is often pre-skewed before sewing so that shrinking does not distort the shape)

How that relates to roping is that the fabric is tightly folded twice over itself at the hem. So when this skew happens the fabric bunches up, because the stitching opposes the tendency of the fabric to spiral on itself. This is why it's called 'roping'. It has a distinct spiral effect if you look closely.

(Note: chainstitching is not essential to this, it's more dependent on a narrowish hem, stitched very tightly so that the fabric can't shift to accomodate the spiral)
OE means "open-ended" and it's the type of yarns (as opposed to ringspun), and has nothing to do with selvage or unraveling.
Jeans can be OE and selvage, or ringspun and non-selvage.

Atelier La Durance are non-selvage. I'm hardly ashamed of the cuff on mine.

Pablo-T put it up there... The actual selvage is more or less meaningless. A great vintage detail, chance to put a signature line, nothing more. The actual quality is dependent on the quality of cotton, the spinning method, the dye used, and the dying technique.

nice post. I had OE confused with non selvedge. I figured selvedge is a clean end and the non selvedge just cuts off so I thought OE was the term used to discribe that. Also roping can be acheived without chainstitching. People seem to think they NEED chainstitching to get nice roping, which isn't true. Chainstitching helps because it 'pulls' on the fabric as it gets stitched down, helping the process. You mentioned 'yarns' having to due with fading, how does that work, exactly?

Much of the look of denim comes from the yarns; whether you have OE or ring spun yarn affects the texture of the surface - how the cotton actually lies. One is simply blown together, one - ring-spun- is twisted. Ring spun gives far better texture when worn in - it's sometimes descirbed as giving more 'zing' to the fade. OPen End has an entirely different set of internal tensions when washed, which gives a distinctive look often descirbed as 'orange peel'. The difference between the two spinning methods is often described as one having more 'slubbiness' but that's not really true.

There's a good thread over at SuFu which covers this topic. One poster pointed out how the Levi's Orange Tab jeans were usually OE yarn - I think they were made on projectile looms, although I'm not certain. These jeans can look terrific, with a distinctive slubbiness - which is an entirely different kind of slubbiness to what you'll find on a 50s jean.

For everyone who is into denim, there's always been a convention that Selvedge, ring-ring denim is best. THere's a good reason for that, becuase 80s denim was made on projectile looms, using OE yars, and was gerneally crappy. But that crappiness was down to a many other factors, too.

AS has been pointed out, on an equal price basis, non-selvedge denim will be superior, because it's a more efficient process, so if you put the money saved towards more indigo dips, or Pima cotton, you will get denim that wears better.
It's true that you can get roping without chainstitching - indeed, the pre-1922 LVC repros can get lovely roping. But you will nearly always get more roping on classic chainstitched repros, because they tend to have the bottom hems made on a Union Special (the 43200G, designed for making bags) which pulls the hem around as it sews, giving more tension and therefore more roping when the fabric shrinks.

There are many benefits of having 'non-selvedge' denim - which in this context means wide width denim produced by jet looms giving a fabric width of around 56" and are generally characterised by having a fringed selvedge, as in the photo below.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...hamjim/lee.jpg taken from an older thread here : http://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=14522

Selvage denim is perfect for straight legged jeans. The pattern pieces slot into the width of the denim in beautiful symbiosis. However, due it it's narrow with, it's far less efficient match. Consider if you need to make flared jeans, skirts, fancy patterns such a twisted-leg 'engineered' jeans (eg GStar, Levi's), childrenswear, oversize garments etc. In these cases the edge finish of the denim matters little and the economic argument for using a wider width fabric is logical.

Now you can have your cake....

There are wide width denims available with woven-in, clean finished selvedges and at first glance they are quite convincing, and the fabric themselves are excellent. Take a look at this picture.

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/459...dgecompweb.jpg

No prizes for guessing the Italian one

1 Chinese right hand twill, 56" wide loom with selvedge woven back in using Italian machinery
2 Japanese broken twill 27" selvedge
3 Italian right hand twill, 56" wide loom with woven in selvedge
4 Japanese right hand twill 27" selvedge

This type of denim still throws up questions of how to make use of the pretty edge at a 56" width.

There is however a sentimental value of shuttle-loom selvedge. Doing it the old and slow way has a definite, intoxicating charm that should be preserved. Old, inefficient and expensive, true love never did run smooth. I'm in complete admiration of Kiya who in the planted the selvedge denim flag in jeans' heartland. That is true love.