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General Bike Thread (Desiderata, questions, porn) - Page 75

post #1111 of 1758
Thanks everyone, really appreciate it. Any more advice is definitely welcome.
post #1112 of 1758
Buying the bike in the winter should get you a decent deal.
An aluminium bike by Bianchi with shimano 105 on it should be possible.
I am a Campagnolo fan, but I don´t know if you can get a good deal on a Bianchi with campa centaur on it for a 1000 euros.

A well cared for second hand bike is definately interesting if a shop has one that fits you well.

Buying a second hand bike straight from another cyclist is a risk if you dont know what to look for in a bike yet.

If you start out on a bike now that fits you well you can enjoy cycling and learn more and more about bikes and what you look for in bikes so that maybe in a couple of years you can buy a dreambike if you really like the sport.

I had an old gazelle steel bike. I upgraded to an aluminium Prorace from Belgium. And now I ride a Wilier Cento Uno with campy chorus and fulcrum zeros. All the bikes gave me a lot of joy and were right for me at that time and at that level of fitness.
post #1113 of 1758
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ich_Dien View Post

Please can somebody help me? I've been wanting to get into road cycling for some time lately, and have finally decided to make the plunge. Ideally, I'd like something second hand as my friend says that's the best way to get more for your money. Could anybody recommend a decent second hand road bike for circa €1000? What should I be looking for? Are the Italian makers like Pinarello and Bianchi any good? The Pinarello HQ is about 40km away from me.
All volume bicycle frame makers have so many products now that "good" and "bad" have become relative terms. The "Big 3" in Italian frames have been and still are Colnago, Pinarello, Bianchi. They all produce absolutely great frames, as well as some (especially Bianchi) absolutely mediocre frames that sell at Walmart, etc. Call it globalization. Other excellent and smaller brands that should have enough diffusion to find used are DeRosa, Scapin, Wilier, Casati, Fondriest, Gios, Battaglin, a bunch of others, maybe Olympia. Somec are good but hard to find. You can always PM me if you need advice on a particular bicycle.

I doubt you are now, but if you are ever in the market for a custom frame, just drop everything and go visit Dario Pegoretti up in Caldonazzo (Trento). Amazing person, incredible frames. Basically a 1-man shop. Check out his site just for fun.

Do you speak Italian? As you say, Pinarello are located very near you, in Villorba, just outside Treviso. They make excellent frames. If you go there, they will take you around back to the factory (at least they used to, for years, but I haven't been there in 5-6) and if they have a frame (not many used but some NOS, etc.) they will fit you. Great people and worth it. You can trust them. Maybe they even speak English, I don't know. Scapin are also located near Treviso, and they build absolutely super frames; they are much smaller than Pinarello, but you could go there too. Wilier Triestina is in Rossano Veneto (near Bassano del Grappa).

Do you live in Venice, ID? How will you get to your riding area with the bicycle? You can either go to the Lido by vaporetto, or to the mainland by bus, train, or on the bike via Ponte della Libertà...(not a fun experience). Once out in the country, however, things get good, as Italian drivers have tremendous respect for cyclists, unlike in the US.


Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom_fries View Post

don't get a 2nd hand bike until you know what you're doing. as in clothing, fit is the most important thing. try to find a good shop that you can imagine yourself spending some time in, and where you get along with the staff and mechanics. they will fit you for a bike, and answer other questions regarding sizing, materials, clothing (you will need to buy shoes, helmet and some decent outfits), and gear.
these days you can get a very nice, light road bike for € 1000.
I agree with all of the above.

While it is possible to generally understand the frame size one requires, using the calculators online at Competitive Cyclist, Colorado Cyclist, by googling "bicycle fit", etc., it is a lot of work and those calculators don't take into account critical postions such as the seatpost/saddle height, handlebar stem length/rise/height, and crankarm length/pedal placement. These 3 positions/adjustments are critical, as important as frame size and geometry.

However, if the bike shop or a calculator say that a 57cm frame is the proper size, and one then finds a 57 cm bicycle in the classifieds, etc., it is not so hard to understand by test riding whether or not the crankshaft and stem are the correct size. The seatpost is the easiest adjustment of the 3, ID, since one is only moving the post up/down and the saddle fore/aft, and not buying a new component. Nothing you can do if a stem or crankset arms are too long/short but replace them.

In any case, even if a good fitter specs out your settings, while the frame size and cranarm length probably will never change, over time and as you ride more and gain experience/fitness you will undoubtedlt tweak your saddle and bar position.

ID, if you can find a good shop/fitter, that would be the logical first step. Unfortunately, I know from experience having grown up in Venice and still living there, and being a cyclist all my life, that there is a remarkable shortage of good shops in the Venice/Mestre area, as in 0. Further out, in Padova, Vicenza, Verona, etc. there are some.


Quote:
Originally Posted by saxamaphone View Post

Agree with Fries comment re. fit. If you have a well-fitted bike, you will want to get on it more often, and you will want to ride it farther all the time.
You can certainly do better for your money by getting one second hand. But it will be a long process of first riding a ton of diff bikes to determine not only appropriate frame size, but also your preferred riding geometry. It would be better to hit a few shops, try some different brands and styles, and determine what you enjoy riding the most.
And yes, Bianchi is a good brand. If I had to give up every bike except one, I would keep my Bianchi. Don't have any personal experience with Pinarello, but they make some pretty cutting edge/high end frames and might be too much for your first road bike. Perhaps someone else can provide more info there.
Again, all true.
A good condition used middle- to top-line steel frame from any of those builders above, like a Pinarello Montello or Opera or a DeRosa Primato/Neo Primato would be an excellent first frame.
A good titanium frame is incredible, but harder to find used as there were many fewer produced.
With used carbon it is absolutely important that the frame not have been abused or crashed by a previous owner.
Avoid aluminum in my opinion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Flieger View Post

Buying the bike in the winter should get you a decent deal.
An aluminium bike by Bianchi with shimano 105 on it should be possible.
I am a Campagnolo fan, but I don´t know if you can get a good deal on a Bianchi with campa centaur on it for a 1000 euros.
A well cared for second hand bike is definately interesting if a shop has one that fits you well.
Buying a second hand bike straight from another cyclist is a risk if you dont know what to look for in a bike yet.
If you start out on a bike now that fits you well you can enjoy cycling and learn more and more about bikes and what you look for in bikes so that maybe in a couple of years you can buy a dreambike if you really like the sport.
I had an old gazelle steel bike. I upgraded to an aluminium Prorace from Belgium. And now I ride a Wilier Cento Uno with campy chorus and fulcrum zeros. All the bikes gave me a lot of joy and were right for me at that time and at that level of fitness.
Again, I'll second the comments re: good used from a shop and risky used via private sale.

Honestly, I would avoid a cheap aluminum Bianchi like the plague. Harsh, unforgiving, just not fun. Bianchi made great alu bikes such as the EVO2 for Pantani, but those all are Italian-built, in their "Reparto Corse", and are in a different league entirely.

Wilier Cento Uno is a fantastic frame. Campagnolo Athena, even Centaur, is more than enough group, especially these days where Athena is like Record of 6-7 years ago.

ID: have fun and good luck!
(And, esp, in Italy but also anywhere else in the world, DO NOT buy Shimano. Campagnolo only! smile.gif )
post #1114 of 1758
Quote:
Originally Posted by venessian View Post

All volume bicycle frame makers have so many products now that "good" and "bad" have become relative terms. The "Big 3" in Italian frames have been and still are Colnago, Pinarello, Bianchi. They all produce absolutely great frames...
Do you live in Venice, ID? How will you get to your riding area with the bicycle?

Thanks, Venessian, an extremely informative post. I live in San Polo, so I would probably just get the train out to Bassano or something, or maybe the vaporetto to Lido as you mentioned. You're right saying that there are zero bike shops around here, but I've seen a few in Treviso and Castelfranco. I'm just curious as to why you'd avoid an aluminium frame, as I really don't know the reasons why. I suppose I could up my budget to around €1200. Thanks for the other suggestions, I really like the look of Scapin.

Have you any opinion on Cinelli? My Italians not that fantastic but I think I could survive and give instruction in a bike fitting in all Italian. Bianchi has offered to measure me at their factory shop, I guess I could try Pinarello too. I just want a simple looking frame basically, and that isn't something offered at my price point unless i went with a pista which i'm not too keen on.
Edited by Ich_Dien - 11/18/11 at 4:32am
post #1115 of 1758
Cinelli is awesome. just quite overpriced. They do know how to make a bike stand out of the crowd. I absolutely love their typography and paintjobs. I am a sucker for Italian bikes in general though.
Scapin makes very nice frames indeed. Wilier is currently one of my fav bike manufacturers.

There are good aluminium frames and there are not so good alu frames. The same goes for any frame material. Carbon bikes range from excellent to very bad just like steel and titanium.
Aluminium has got a bad rep from the time that those frames were overly harsh and very uncomfortably stiff in the wrong areas. You obviously want a stiff bottombracket etc. But when your whole frame transmits roadbuzz like an amplifier you ass is not going to like your new hobby.
Some advanced riders now ride a toplevel carbon frame and they look back at their old aluminium bike that is older than five years and they will say ooo Carbon is the best.
They seem to forget that aluminium frames have developed further and further as well just like carbon has in the last five years. So a bike that costs 1000 euros today is so much better than that same level bike five years ago. I ride an expensive carbon frame now, but I have friends that ride excellent alu bikes. No problem with roadbuzz for them. Engineering of frames is much more sophisticated nowadays.

Anyway a nice entry level Campagnolo group would surely make any italian frame look nicer than shimano IMO.

I have to confess that I do not really like pinarello. The spaghetti styling of the fork does not do it for me.

You have got so much choice in Italy man, I envy you. The search for a nice bike is so much fun. It can be confusing at times, but if you get good advice you will enjoy riding in the springtime I am sure of that.
post #1116 of 1758
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ich_Dien View Post

Thanks, Venessian, an extremely informative post. I live in San Polo, so I would probably just get the train out to Bassano or something, or maybe the vaporetto to Lido as you mentioned. You're right saying that there are zero bike shops around here, but I've seen a few in Treviso and Castelfranco. I'm just curious as to why you'd avoid an aluminium frame, as I really don't know the reasons why. I suppose I could up my budget to around €1200. Thanks for the other suggestions, I really like the look of Scapin.
Have you any opinion on Cinelli? My Italians not that fantastic but I think I could survive and give instruction in a bike fitting in all Italian. Bianchi has offered to measure me at their factory shop, I guess I could try Pinarello too. I just want a simple looking frame basically, and that isn't something offered at my price point unless i went with a pista which i'm not too keen on.

San Polo, excellent. I live right next to Campo Santo Stefano. Right now, however, until the Christmas break and then the spring when I return permanently to Italy, I live in California, Good riding here! smile.gif

Bassano would be good for riding.
When I said 0 stores, I meant as I wrote Mestre/Venezia-adjacent. I'm sure Treviso has some good shops, what with the builders located near there. Also quite a few pros (Gilberto Simoni among them) were born in that area...rich tradition.

As Flieger pointed out above, there are good/bad frames in all materials. There are certainly some very good alu frames, Cinelli among them (Cinelli also make really excellent bars/stem/post). The Danish company Principia (I think out of business now) made great alu frames, as did the US company Klein, before Trek bought them. Bianchis also, the higher-range. My point is that aluminum is the cheapest/lightest of the 4 base materials, so there are many really crappy, harsh, fragile alu frames out there.

Also, for someone on a budget, especially if looking for a new frame, a good frame in aluminum, titanium or carbon will cost more than a steel frame. A used carbon or alu frame would scare me, whereas a used, in good condition, not rusted, older frame in steel such as Columbus EL/OS, MAX, or SLX would be great. Heavier than modern bikes, but nonetheless good. Finally, I personally don't like the ride (feeling) of alu, but I haven't ridden them all. I have found alu to be harsh and uncomfortable. If you could a good Bianchi in one of those steels and in mint Bianchi Celeste color....mmmmmm!!!! BIanchis used to look so gorgeous, with just that single color, some white touches, silver components.

Cinelli are good. The Bianchi Pista is a fixed-gear bicycle; I think you'd prefer a geared bicycle.

Here is some reading for you:

Bicycle parts diagram Mouse over the numbers to see name. It's "stem" though, not "steam".

Craig Calfee's excellent technical white paper on frame materials

Scot Nicol's excellent articles on metallurgy, etc. Fun reading

Sheldon Brown for beginners

Sheldon Brown on frame sizing

Good Keith Bontrager article on fitting

Peter White on fitting

Online fit calculator, for general numbers only

A bunch of good links gathered by Damon Rinard

English/Italian cycling terms #1

English/Italian cycling terms #2

Just keep us posted with search and we'll help you out.

Also, remember Keith Bontrager's very true aphorism: "Strong. Light. Cheap. Pick two." It's just the way it is.

Good luck and have fun! smile.gif
Edited by venessian - 11/18/11 at 3:07pm
post #1117 of 1758
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom_fries View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by acidboy View Post

Whats wrong with intense?
Exactly what i was thinking, use somethng like 29x2.2 tires or something.

nothing per se wrong, but intense has no history in making bikes like that. it will also be likely over-priced. if someone were to force me to get a fully rigid it would have to be be titanium, and from a maker with history in ti bikes.

Agree with that, but im also under the impression that the guys at intense makes good products and they've been selling cf frames for some months now.
post #1118 of 1758
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom_fries View Post

nothing per se wrong, but intense has no history in making bikes like that. it will also be likely over-priced. if someone were to force me to get a fully rigid it would have to be be titanium, and from a maker with history in ti bikes.
I kind of agree with that, re: Intense. They are good but there are many other options.




You mean like this one?
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smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif

For sale, along with others, plus a bunch of components, if people are interested. Not shilling, only offering.

post #1119 of 1758
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ich_Dien View Post

Thanks, Venessian, an extremely informative post. I live in San Polo, so I would probably just get the train out to Bassano or something, or maybe the vaporetto to Lido as you mentioned. You're right saying that there are zero bike shops around here, but I've seen a few in Treviso and Castelfranco. I'm just curious as to why you'd avoid an aluminium frame, as I really don't know the reasons why. I suppose I could up my budget to around €1200. Thanks for the other suggestions, I really like the look of Scapin.
Have you any opinion on Cinelli? My Italians not that fantastic but I think I could survive and give instruction in a bike fitting in all Italian. Bianchi has offered to measure me at their factory shop, I guess I could try Pinarello too. I just want a simple looking frame basically, and that isn't something offered at my price point unless i went with a pista which i'm not too keen on.
Scapin are fantastic frames.

The Lido is fun, easy, convenient. Boring after awhile, but still nice because it is close.

The Prologue (Team Time Trial) of the 2009 Giro d'Italia was run at the Lido. It was awesome.



393

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Teams being presented in Piazzetta San Marco.

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Teams being presented in Piazzetta San Marco.

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Ivan Basso, Danilo Di Luca, Gilberto Simoni and Lance Armstrong travel together by gondola to today's post-teams presentation press conference.


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"Honey, I'm going out for a spin. Be back in a few hours. Ciao!"

post #1120 of 1758
Nice photos. I went to see the TT in Amsterdam when the Giro was there. Awesome atmoshpere. The streets were packed with spectators and the riders were cheered very loudly.
When a Rabobank rider was coming you could hear the sound of the crowd cheering coming towards us like a wave. Really cool.

Further bike advice in a nutshell would be

When buying a toplevel bike do not go cheap on the wheels.
But when buying an entry level racer between 1000 and 1500 euro I would put the first priority with the frame. 2nd with the choice of a groupset by Campagnolo, Sram or Shimano. And lastly the wheels. The reason for this is that a wheel upgrade after a year or more of riding is relatively easy.

Anyway look for a frame with good reviews on bike forums in various countries. Do some research on sizing on bike forums and do not make an impulse buy if you are not sure of what youre doing.

Campagnolo group anything upwards from veloce and mirage, centaur would be very nice and athena slightly out of your league for that price but possible if you look for a discounted bike.
Sram rival is ok. Force is probably slightly too expensive, but if possible go for it.
Shimano 105 is probably the easiest to find on a discount. good quality performance price ratio. Sometimes you might even find a bike in that range with Ultegra on it.

Wheels I would go for bombproof low maintenance wheels by Campagnolo or the Campa owned Fulcrum. Fulcrum 7 is entry level. 5 is in this price bracket a good deal and 3 or higher would be the upgrade you can always go for later. There are many many options for good entry level wheels out there. If you see a nice bike try to negotiate an upgraded wheelset if the price allows for it.

Good luck Ich Dien, you can always pm me again if you need more advice.
post #1121 of 1758
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post #1122 of 1758
^
thumbs-up.gif

Nice.
Nit-picky details for me are the saddle; maybe the bar shape; definitely the cages. The rest of the build looks solid and good for that frame.
post #1123 of 1758
Quote:
Originally Posted by venessian View Post

^
thumbs-up.gif
Nice.
Nit-picky details for me are the saddle; maybe the bar shape; definitely the cages. The rest of the build looks solid and good for that frame.

The modern headset and stem look odd and I agree on the bar shape and cages but what's wrong with the saddle (apart from not being horizontal)?
post #1124 of 1758
Quote:
Originally Posted by venessian View Post

^
thumbs-up.gif
Nice.
Nit-picky details for me are the saddle; maybe the bar shape; definitely the cages. The rest of the build looks solid and good for that frame.

I'm trying out the saddle for now. Its a selle an atomica (basically an "american brooks leather saddle with a large cut out"). I was always curious about leather saddles.

I still have my usual light weight road saddles (the selle san marco cayamano or aspide) and wanted to try out a leather saddle.

The carbon cages are there to keep the weight down. right now I'm running a 17.8lbs with the lighter road saddle and at 18.5lbs with the heavy leather saddle. I've actually installed fenders (which was tough because the frame didn't come with a chainstay bridge) to run it in the rain or snow and maybe as a commuter bike and the complete bike with fenders a old fashion brass bike bell and leather saddle is just under 20lbs.

After the initial installation of the fenders its now easy to uninstall or install (probably about 5min) especially with the use of Sheldon Fender Nuts. Its just really nice to have the option of fenders to ride a nice roadbike in the rain/snow/fire trails now.

The bar shape is the new "modern curve" (straight line and shorter reach into the brifters and shallow drops. I always thought the modern handlebar curve was weird looking. But the matching bars and stem (ironically called Ritchey Classic line - because its all polished silver colored) all are in modern standards (31.6 diameter and modern curves).

after trying out the "modern curve" handlebars for the past weeks I'm beginning to love them - no awkward wrist angles especially in the hoods.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fang66 View Post

The modern headset and stem look odd and I agree on the bar shape and cages but what's wrong with the saddle (apart from not being horizontal)?

leather saddles always seem to need an up tilted angle because they basically act like hammocks rather than seats.

its still the old threaded headset, i'm just running a threadless quill adapter. running an old quill stem requires the use of 26.0 or 25.4 handlebars (which are very heavy because they are all old model stocks now). Plus its a pain in the ass to make switch out things like brakes and handlebars with the old quill stems because it requires you to strip off the handlebar tape and thread it through the opening.
Edited by LawrenceMD - 11/27/11 at 11:04pm
post #1125 of 1758
I see.

Obviously saddles are personal preference. I have never really liked Brooks, leather, or cut-outs, but that isn't what bothers me about your saddle. What looks odd , to me, are the boxy square rails and especially the fact that the rails are black. It looks incongruous with all the other silver bits.

I do think the cages, (at least those particular cages) look really out of sorts on that frame. The weight savings is not so significant. I think Arundels if you want cf, or King ti, etc. would just look better than those really minimalist cages on an obviously steel frame.

Yes, I know those bars. I may be wrong but I think 3T first developed that shape with the Ergosum. I tried those, with older Campa Record shifters (not those with the new hoods), and I just didn't like them as much as my shallow drop round bars. Again that is pure personal prefernce, and of these three elements the bars look OK to me, relative to the cages especially, and the saddle.

It's great that you installed fender capability.

The build looks good.

Yes, stem adapters are a compromise, but you're right in that old quill stems and associated bars are much heavier and less convenient than modern stems and OS bars. There were, in the last days of quills, a few stems with removeable face-plates, but they're hard to find these days. Deda Murex stems were good, removeable, and are still available, but they require a 26.0 bar.

350
Edited by venessian - 11/29/11 at 12:15pm
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