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Dress codes,. written and otherwise - Page 6

post #76 of 104
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(Huntsman @ June 14 2005,01:09) I think we have drifted a bit from topic, but I find that I must ask, Professors, what would you think of a student who would wear a suit to class 3-4 times per semester? Naturally, a pocket square and fully traditional trimmings would also be present, occasionally including a fedora that is doffed before entering your classroom. Just curious. BTW, I don't know what is considered 'good' pay around here, but my Profs get from 90k-120k USD/yr. I found that Profs at the community college I attended earlier dressed better on average, than at my current not-quite-Ivy private University. My two favorite Profs here are quite sartorially disparate -- one always wears a sportjacket (very rare here), the other literally wore the same jeans and sneakers with the same three shirts all semester. Both were brilliant and a privilege to be taught by. Regards, Huntsman
I'd assume they were on their ways to interviews or were giving formal presentations that day. I see it every once in a while, and like the above poster, they normally don't look very good.
I "attended" university while working full time in, essentially, the type of work I am doing now. some times I would show up dressed like everybody else, often I would come to school in a suit, on my way to or coming back from the office, and most days I seemed to miss the campus all together. some undergraduates have lives off campus.
post #77 of 104
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I think we have drifted a bit from topic, but I find that I must ask, Professors, what would you think of a student who would wear a suit to class 3-4 times per semester? Naturally, a pocket square and fully traditional trimmings would also be present, occasionally including a fedora that is doffed before entering your classroom. Just curious.
I teach at a very traditional college in that most students are between the ages of 18 and 24. They typically come from upper-middle income homes I believe. And the ones that hold jobs outside of class do no have jobs that require a suit. A suit in class would look *very* out of place. Like someone else said, I would assume that the student was either giving a presentation or had a greek (fraternity) requirement--sometimes they do that. Students just don't wear suits on a day-to-day basis. I figure it's not in their budgets. And even if it were they would rather spend that money on gas/beer/pizza/etc. bob
post #78 of 104
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[ some undergraduates have lives off campus.
I can't say "Amen." to this quite enough. Regards, Huntsman
post #79 of 104
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If my level of intelligence concludes that a professional should dress like one... A lackwit who also could have had two published papers in peer-reviewed academic journals before he graduated with a bachelors degree. I find it humorous, however, that we blast any number of other working professionals for looking like slobs but academics are sacrosanct from that same criticism.
Taking your statements one at a time: 1. But intelligence does not lead to opinions, tastes do. Besides, what does it mean to dress like a professional? It depends on the setting. And in academia what is accepted as professional is much more broadly defined. But see 3. 2. Wow. Two published papers before a BA/BS. Are you sure? Most people do well to get one co-authored in grad school. 3. I agree. It is my firmly held opinion that some of my colleagues dress like slobs and could pick it up a notch just for the sake of decency. But that's just my opinion. bob
post #80 of 104
Most arts and sciences professors--even full professors-- don't earn 90-120K. Faculty in law and business have a totally different pay scale. For some recent data, see http://www.aaup.org/surveys/04z/surveytab4.pdf As for students who dress more formally, I usually assume that they have jobs, interviews, special occasions, or just a desire to dress well.
post #81 of 104
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1. But intelligence does not lead to opinions, tastes do. Besides, what does it mean to dress like a professional? It depends on the setting. And in academia what is accepted as professional is much more broadly defined. But see 3.
I would argue that only recently though. Up until a few decades ago a professor wouldn't have dreamed of coming into a classroom with the sloppy look that most seem to prefer today. I mean for Christ's sake, if they can master a field to the point they can earn a doctorate, they can also master the use of a washing machine and iron
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2. Wow. Two published papers before a BA/BS. Are you sure? Most people do well to get one co-authored in grad school.
Quite sure. The specialty I was going into hadn't had a lot of work done in it at the time and (at the risk of some braggadocio) I was turning out some interesting high quality experiments and studies. Again, neither was published because I got out of the field completely and didn't want to pursue it anymore. Probably a mistake...As you suggested, not many people have a paper published before they even receive a BA.
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3. I agree. It is my firmly held opinion that some of my colleagues dress like slobs and could pick it up a notch just for the sake of decency. But that's just my opinion.
I'm willing to relent on the suit/sportcoat suggestion if they'd only come to class looking a little more put together than the students. The iron can be mastered by anyone.
post #82 of 104
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(LA Guy @ June 11 2005,23:36) Sorry,  but it is difficult to take anyone who actually feels this way seriously.  If you *know* that somebody is intelligent and accomplished, and can't take them seriously because they eschew shirts and ties (and in my experience, most academics, and definitely most of the best scientists, do,) you've inadvertently shown your own level of intelligence.
Oh please, did we really have to jump into the realm of the personal insult LA Guy? If my level of intelligence concludes that a professional should dress like one, then I freely admit being a pedestrian and provincial lackwit. A lackwit who also could have had two published papers in peer-reviewed academic journals before he graduated with a bachelors degree. Before I'm accused of having a vendetta against academics, I would hasten to add that it was my preferred career choice before a philosphical difference with my field pushed me into another career. I find it humorous, however, that we blast any number of other working professionals for looking like slobs but academics are sacrosanct from that same criticism. Why? Because relatively recently (since that most treasured decade known as the 1960s), academics were given a free pass when it came to dressing like adults.
It was not a personal insult per se, just a opinion about a certain class of people. You may choose to be considered to be in that class or not. I would like to hear your philosophical differences with what would have been your field of study. Unless your field was very narrow, with very few people in it, I fail to see how you could not find kindred spirits in it. And let's not turn this into a pissing contest. I had two papers in the literature before getting my BSc. as well, and freely admit that I was a lackwit at the time, especially when it came to understanding the dynamics of my field. I have completed my doctorate, and am finishing my second year in postdoctoral research, and am still finding my place. It would presumptuous to assume that a B.A. or B.Sc. gives anything but a taste of what a field is like. You seem to dislike the 60's. What did they ever do to you? From your posts, I put you in your midthirties. That would make you born in the late 60's. Correct me if I'm wrong.
post #83 of 104
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I would like to hear your philosophical differences with what would have been your field of study. Unless your field was very narrow, with very few people in it, I fail to see how you could not find kindred spirits in it. And let's not turn this into a pissing contest. I had two papers in the literature before getting my BSc. as well, and freely admit that I was a lackwit at the time, especially when it came to understanding the dynamics of my field. I have completed my doctorate, and am finishing my second year in postdoctoral research, and am still finding my place. It would presumptuous to assume that a B.A. or B.Sc. gives anything but a taste of what a field is like.
You seem to enjoy reading things into what I write that aren't there No offense, I really don't want to get into it publicly. It was a difficult period in my life to learn that I had spent a lot of money and four years of my life only to be disappointed months before I finished. Perhaps I'll fill you in sometime in the future. I enjoyed the work I did but ultimately it didn't fulfill me the way I thought it would. So, had I went forward, I too could have been Dr. Gord Gekko
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You seem to dislike the 60's. What did they ever do to you? From your posts, I put you in your midthirties. That would make you born in the late 60's. Correct me if I'm wrong.
1971. As for what they did to me...I'm a culturally conservative libertarian. You do the math
post #84 of 104
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Originally Posted by LA Guy,June 11 2005,23:36
Sorry, but it is difficult to take anyone who actually feels this way seriously. If you *know* that somebody is intelligent and accomplished, and can't take them seriously because they eschew shirts and ties (and in my experience, most academics, and definitely most of the best scientists, do,) you've inadvertently shown your own level of intelligence.
Oh please, did we really have to jump into the realm of the personal insult LA Guy? If my level of intelligence concludes that a professional should dress like one, then I freely admit being a pedestrian and provincial lackwit. A lackwit who also could have had two published papers in peer-reviewed academic journals before he graduated with a bachelors degree. Before I'm accused of having a vendetta against academics, I would hasten to add that it was my preferred career choice before a philosphical difference with my field pushed me into another career. I find it humorous, however, that we blast any number of other working professionals for looking like slobs but academics are sacrosanct from that same criticism. Why? Because relatively recently (since that most treasured decade known as the 1960s), academics were given a free pass when it came to dressing like adults.
I wouldn't suggest that your intelligence is inferior for suggesting that a lack of dress sense indicates inferior intelligence. I would suggest that you are wrong, in some cases at least, and dreadfully wrong in extreme cases (the fact that you can write fundamentally sound sentences proves that you are of at least above average intelligence). Though it's controversial, I think that the best dress sense is shown by people of above average, but not strikingly above average intelligence. The same demographic rules the country, and makes the most money- much, if not most, of the money out there to be made (disregarding a few real geniuses who have made billions as entrepreneurs). People with IQs between 120 and 140 make up the political class and the executive class. People with IQs higher than that tend to gravitate toward less profitable professions, like engineering, mathematics, physics, and computer programming . People with IQs lower than that also tend to gravitate toward lower paid professions, like auto mechanic, or professors in the humanities and social sciences (I'm joking- don't shoot me). IQ is a somewhat fuzzy measure, but I think it is not a bad one in aggregate. All joking aside, I think it is true that a lot of very smart people dress very badly. Physicists (and I've known a few good ones) can't generally be relied on to match their socks- and I don't mean match them to their pants- I mean wear two of the same kind. It tends to go downhill from there, though experimental physicists can at least look sharp in lab coats.
post #85 of 104
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1971. As for what they did to me...I'm a culturally conservative libertarian. You do the math
Same year, similar profile. My cultural conservatism is tempered by the radicalism that I picked up as a youth, and have since largely rejected- I'm still all for inclusion, and I'd consider myself more a classical liberal than a conservative- sadly, one and the same these days. I was raised by hippies, after all (a bit like being raised by wolves, but without the table manners). The reasons I had for rejecting an academic career (and I was pretty much offered one on a velvet cushion) are legion, but a full explanation would be out of place here. I suspect they may not have been that different from yours.
post #86 of 104
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My cultural conservatism is tempered by the radicalism that I picked up as a youth
You were a hard core trad?. Edit: typo.
post #87 of 104
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(rootless @ June 17 2005,12:01) My cultural conservatism is tempered by the radicalism that I picked up as a youth
You weer a hard core trad?.
I don't. I'd say my personal style is still coming together, but it is not, and will not, be trad. I'm too young, too thin, too single, and too adventurous (euphemism alert) to subject myself to full on trad, just as I am not young, thin, idle, or rich enough to wear ridiculous designer clothing. That said, I like a lot of elements of trad clothing, particularly on men of a certain age, or shape. I do own quite a few Brooks Brothers shirts, but that just kind of happened. Now, if your post is meant as a gentle jibe at the mores of northeasterners (given its brevity and ambiguity it is hard to know what you meant)... well, please disregard my post .
post #88 of 104
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Now, if your post is meant as a gentle jibe at the mores of northeasterners (given its brevity and ambiguity it is hard to know what you meant)... well, please disregard my post .
(1) conservatism -> trad (2) radicalism -> hard core (1) & (2) -> hard core trad
post #89 of 104
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I have been asked to write an article for a business journal about business dress codes.
Are you done? Will it have 5 sections on academia?
post #90 of 104
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(rootless @ June 17 2005,12:23) Now, if your post is meant as a gentle jibe at the mores of northeasterners (given its brevity and ambiguity it is hard to know what you meant)... well, please disregard my post .
(1) conservatism -> trad (2) radicalism -> hard core (1) & (2) -> hard core trad
Let's not mistake something as silly and superficial as an Ivy League (of the past) look with something as profound (one hopes) as political philosophy (or less profound) political orientation. A roster those who shop at Brooks, Stuart, Press, Eljo's et al would I'm sure not reveal a "hardcore" or even "conservative" bias.
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