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post #61 of 104
Let me clear a few things up here: (1) I do not accuse academics of being lazy. Rather, I just don't think that doing a good job entails as many hours as, for example, an orthopedic surgeon requires to do a good job. (2) I am not bashing academics. Indeed, some of my best friends are academics, and almost all of my best friends aspire to be academics. Academia is my desired career path, both for the lifestyle and for the work. (3) I don't think professors "exploit" students. Law professors routinely do no research of their own, but merely write without citation and hire students at $12 an hour to hunt down appropriate citations and quotes that support the professors' free form statements. Often times the student is actually doing the writing, merely filling in the professor's detailed outline. This is more common with the very best professors, ironically, because they can attract the best research assistants. Is this exploitation? Well, aside from $12 an hour, these students learn a lot and get a great recommendation that propels them on their own high profile careers -- so I'd say it's not so much exploitation, but rather the professor paying the student in nonmonetary ways. Very efficient indeed. I went to one of, if not the most, prestigious law school in the world and here is what, in my experience, amounts to an average week for a tenured law professor: Class time -- 8 hours (that's the ABA maximum.); prep time -- 3 hours (I've been told by a professor who is a great classroom teacher that this is at the high end. I had one teacher, who've you've probably seen on morning talk shows, that clearly prepared for about 20 minutes for each class session. I did have one insane teacher who probably spent about 2 hours prepping for each sesson.); research and writing -- I'd estimate 5 hours a week (plus doling out about 15 hours a week to student assistants working on the cheap), which results in about one 50 page article a year, perhaps a couple of shorter comments, and maybe a book every 5 or 6 years; office hours -- 2 hours (maximum); advising outside of office hours -- on average 1/2 hour a week; meetings -- 2 hours a week. That's 20 hours right there. Even if I'm 50% off, that's only a 30 hour work week. And that's without having a boss, essentially. As for grading "writing," law professors grade only final exams. After having graded such exams as an assistant, I'd say you could get through one final exam every 5 - 7 minutes. So, if a professor has 150 students total in all his classes, he's still looking at only 15 hours tops on one occassion. Back at my undergrad, I asked one of my professors how long it takes him to prepare for a garden variety poli sci class. He said after teaching the class one or two times, he can prepare in takes him about 20 minutes to prepare for a 90 minute class. And he was a GREAT classroom teacher.
post #62 of 104
Quote:
Let me clear a few things up here: (1)  I do not accuse academics of being lazy.  Rather, I just don't think that doing a good job entails as many hours as, for example, an orthopedic surgeon requires to do a good job. (2)  I am not bashing academics.  Indeed, some of my best friends are academics, and almost all of my best friends aspire to be academics.  Academia is my desired career path, both for the lifestyle and for the work. (3)  I don't think professors "exploit" students.  Law professors routinely do no research of their own, but merely write without citation and hire students at $12 an hour to hunt down appropriate citations and quotes that support the professors' free form statements.  Often times the student is actually doing the writing, merely filling in the professor's detailed outline.  This is more common with the very best professors, ironically, because they can attract the best research assistants.  Is this exploitation?  Well, aside from $12 an hour, these students learn a lot and get a great recommendation that propels them on their own high profile careers -- so I'd say it's not so much exploitation, but rather the professor paying the student in nonmonetary ways.  Very efficient indeed. I went to one of, if not the most, prestigious law school in the world and here is what, in my experience, amounts to an average week for a tenured law professor:  Class time -- 8 hours (that's the ABA maximum.); prep time -- 3 hours (I've been told by a professor who is a great classroom teacher that this is at the high end.  I had one teacher, who've you've probably seen on morning talk shows, that clearly prepared for about 20 minutes for each class session.  I did have one insane teacher who probably spent about 2 hours prepping for each sesson.); research and writing -- I'd estimate 5 hours a week (plus doling out about 15 hours a week to student assistants working on the cheap), which results in about one 50 page article a year, perhaps a couple of shorter comments, and maybe a book every 5 or 6 years; office hours -- 2 hours (maximum); advising outside of office hours -- on average 1/2 hour a week; meetings -- 2 hours a week.   That's 20 hours right there.  Even if I'm 50% off, that's only a 30 hour work week.  And that's without having a boss, essentially.   As for grading "writing," law professors grade only final exams.  After having graded such exams as an assistant, I'd say you could get through one final exam every 5 - 7 minutes.  So, if a professor has 150 students total in all his classes, he's still looking at only 15 hours tops on one occassion. Back at my undergrad, I asked one of my professors how long it takes him to prepare for a garden variety poli sci class.  He said after teaching the class one or two times, he can prepare in takes him about 20 minutes to prepare for a 90 minute class.  And he was a GREAT classroom teacher.
Let's just say that we are really generalizing. I think that the work of an academic depends on a variety of factors: what type of university the academic is in, hie/her seniority, and perhaps most importantly, the field they are working in. My father is a academic and administrator in the social sciences at a midlevel university, and I did my graduate and am doing my postgraduate work at two world class universities, in the sciences, and I the workloads and *type* of work for faculty members in the sciences and the social sciences, not to mention the humanities and law, are extremely different. And as rdawson stated earlier, the "publish or perish" motto applies more to research oriented than teaching oriented universities... He says that teaching duties takes up a great deal of his time. On the other hand, There is an adage at Caltech that any prof who wins a teaching award will not be awarded tenure.
post #63 of 104
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Hmmm... I hate lawyers.  But who doesn't? Also bankers, particularly of the I variety. Also doctors, but only plastic surgeons. Also, telemarketers.  Especially those who put you on hold. Also, pushy salespeople.  Basically anyone who works at Bernini's. Also, anyone who takes Ayn Rand seriously. Also, anyone who takes science too seriously. Or not seriously enough. Also, slow people at the checkout counter. I'd add to the list as people I hate occur to me.
Are you sure you don't want to be a banker? Think of all the nice clothes you could buy... C'mon, come over to the dark side
post #64 of 104
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(LA Guy @ June 13 2005,13:52) Hmmm... I hate lawyers.  But who doesn't? Also bankers, particularly of the I variety. Also doctors, but only plastic surgeons. Also, telemarketers.  Especially those who put you on hold. Also, pushy salespeople.  Basically anyone who works at Bernini's. Also, anyone who takes Ayn Rand seriously. Also, anyone who takes science too seriously. Or not seriously enough. Also, slow people at the checkout counter. I'd add to the list as people I hate occur to me.
Are you sure you don't want to be a banker? Think of all the nice clothes you could buy... C'mon, come over to the dark side  
I'll only come over to the Dark Side if there is a vague chance you are telling the truth and I may or may not be able to save my wife from a vague dream only if I do.
post #65 of 104
well, you can buy your wife some nice clothes or jewelry or whatever you want...you just have to be willing to stare at spreadsheets/powerpoint/blackberry for 14 hrs a day.
post #66 of 104
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well, you can buy your wife some nice clothes or jewelry or whatever you want...you just have to be willing to stare at spreadsheets/powerpoint/blackberry for 14 hrs a day.
Hmmm... sounds like what I do now for a lot more money. And it seems I won't have to give up my SF addiction either,,,
post #67 of 104
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All we can do is speak from our own direct experience.  So your's was different from mine.  But I think my experience is far more typical than what you have experienced.
I think this is one of the biggest fallacies of post-Enlightened thought. This cult of experience. It denigrates the intellect and the imagination. Knowledge comes not from experience alone. Just a quibble.
post #68 of 104
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Sorry, but it is difficult to take anyone who actually feels this way seriously. If you *know* that somebody is intelligent and accomplished, and can't take them seriously because they eschew shirts and ties (and in my experience, most academics, and definitely most of the best scientists, do,) you've inadvertently shown your own level of intelligence.
Oh please, did we really have to jump into the realm of the personal insult LA Guy? If my level of intelligence concludes that a professional should dress like one, then I freely admit being a pedestrian and provincial lackwit. A lackwit who also could have had two published papers in peer-reviewed academic journals before he graduated with a bachelors degree. Before I'm accused of having a vendetta against academics, I would hasten to add that it was my preferred career choice before a philosphical difference with my field pushed me into another career. I find it humorous, however, that we blast any number of other working professionals for looking like slobs but academics are sacrosanct from that same criticism. Why? Because relatively recently (since that most treasured decade known as the 1960s), academics were given a free pass when it came to dressing like adults.
post #69 of 104
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I find it humorous, however, that we blast any number of other working professionals for looking like slobs but academics are sacrosanct from that same criticism.
The most worthwhile thing an uncle of mine ever said was "Who's 'we?' You got a turd in your pocket?" (In other words, be careful not to speak for all of us.)
post #70 of 104
The dominant theme on this board since I joined last year is that everyone dresses like a slob. If I use "we" it is only in a general sense. Ah, but then again, that could be evidence of LA Guy's assertion of my own mediocre intelligence.
post #71 of 104
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The dominant theme on this board since I joined last year is that everyone dresses like a slob. If I use "we" it is only in a general sense. Ah, but then again, that could be evidence of LA Guy's assertion of my own mediocre intelligence.
True enough. I know what you mean, and I frankly don't always agree with this theme. To bring up yet another topic, the times they are a-changin'. (Oh, man...I can imagine the responses I'm going to get from this.) Time was, the best dressed people had spotless tunics and tolgas. That doesn't excuse someone's looking like a slob; it's just that a person can look neat and orderly in any mode of dress. In my classes, I tend to wear nice wool trousers or chinos, a good quality long-sleeved shirt or polo shirt, and shoes appropriate to the outfit. With the exception of formal presentation days, I don't see the need to wear a suit to class. Horses for courses. Now, if I were a decade older, I might be doing just that, but someone of my age (32) who wore suits/ties to class most of the time could easily come off as affected.
post #72 of 104
I think we have drifted a bit from topic, but I find that I must ask, Professors, what would you think of a student who would wear a suit to class 3-4 times per semester? Naturally, a pocket square and fully traditional trimmings would also be present, occasionally including a fedora that is doffed before entering your classroom. Just curious. BTW, I don't know what is considered 'good' pay around here, but my Profs get from 90k-120k USD/yr. I found that Profs at the community college I attended earlier dressed better on average, than at my current not-quite-Ivy private University. My two favorite Profs here are quite sartorially disparate -- one always wears a sportjacket (very rare here), the other literally wore the same jeans and sneakers with the same three shirts all semester. Both were brilliant and a privilege to be taught by. Regards, Huntsman
post #73 of 104
So, Manton, how's that article coming?
post #74 of 104
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I think we have drifted a bit from topic, but I find that I must ask, Professors, what would you think of a student who would wear a suit to class 3-4 times per semester? Naturally, a pocket square and fully traditional trimmings would also be present, occasionally including a fedora that is doffed before entering your classroom. Just curious. BTW, I don't know what is considered 'good' pay around here, but my Profs get from 90k-120k USD/yr. I found that Profs at the community college I attended earlier dressed better on average, than at my current not-quite-Ivy private University. My two favorite Profs here are quite sartorially disparate -- one always wears a sportjacket (very rare here), the other literally wore the same jeans and sneakers with the same three shirts all semester. Both were brilliant and a privilege to be taught by. Regards, Huntsman
I had a couple of people in my classes who would wear a suit.  I thought it was very odd, especially considering the dress of the rest of the people in the class.  I suppose it didn't help that the suits didn't fit very well and their shoes were not very good quality.  If a person can pull it off, then maybe, but if not, it comes across as someone just trying to be different (in a bad way). I'm a student, btw.
post #75 of 104
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I think we have drifted a bit from topic, but I find that I must ask, Professors, what would you think of a student who would wear a suit to class 3-4 times per semester? Naturally, a pocket square and fully traditional trimmings would also be present, occasionally including a fedora that is doffed before entering your classroom. Just curious. BTW, I don't know what is considered 'good' pay around here, but my Profs get from 90k-120k USD/yr. I found that Profs at the community college I attended earlier dressed better on average, than at my current not-quite-Ivy private University. My two favorite Profs here are quite sartorially disparate -- one always wears a sportjacket (very rare here), the other literally wore the same jeans and sneakers with the same three shirts all semester. Both were brilliant and a privilege to be taught by. Regards, Huntsman
I'd assume they were on their ways to interviews or were giving formal presentations that day. I see it every once in a while, and like the above poster, they normally don't look very good.
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