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Originally Posted by
NorCal 
Slim I do know about Lee and I also know that many people like to call him an early example of a modern MMA fighter.
Because he was.
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THe real father of MMA is from Brazil.
I assume you are talking about the Gracies and their "style versus style" Vale Tudo stuff. If that's who you are referring to, the early Gracies were just as "unproven" professionally as Lee.
And Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is not mixed martial arts. Pitting a boxer against a wrestler isn't what modern MMA is about. Modern MMA is about being a complete fighter. Something that I don't know any Gracie has ever had to do, and what Bruce Lee was striving to do. Thats why he trained in boxing, grappling, fencing, wrestling, and traditional martial arts. He knew the importance of grappling. He learned from one of the best around.
As far as I know, none of the Gracies have ever given serious training to anything by BJJ.
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It is almost impossible to shift through the bullshit when it comes to his actual ability and supposed remaking of martial arts.
Why is it so difficult for someone who's so familiar with him? I'll simplify it. He was a fighter. He devoted his entire life to making himself a better fighter from a very young age. Nothing else in his life was more important than that. He scheduled movies, interviews, and his marriage around his training, not the other way around. He was not an actor, husband, celebrity, father, or teacher first. He was a fighter first.
He never had "a movie studio behind him" At least not here in the states. In China, he made his movies around his training schedule, and when he flew over there to film, he didn't take any clothes, he took his training equipment. Muhammad Ali had a press agent, probably a much better one than Lee could afford too. He had handlers, managers, Don King, and Howard Cosell in his pocket. None of what you are saying makes either Lee or Ali any less or more of a fighter, or a gifted athlete, or anything.
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Ryoto Machida has a Karate back ground as does GSP. They don't do a lot of stupid tricks and their fights tend to go much the same as fighters with more western backgrounds.
The other reason is that tricks are not a part of the Martial Arts. Any feats of strength or speed Bruce Lee could do, were done to demonstrate his physical conditioning or to get people interested in his methodology. What kind of a point are you trying to make? Nobody ever claimed that Briuce Lee ever beat anyone up by snatching rice out of the air with chopsticks. Just like nobody is claiming that Ali mugging for the cameras, spouting off poetry, or whatever made him a better fighter, it just made him a great personality.
The difference is, of course, that snatching a grain of rice from the air with chopsticks is hard. Jabbing holes through coke cans with your fingertips is HARD. Making a 120lb punching bag dance around effortlessly with your punches (when you weigh 135lbs) and then side kicking it into the ceiling is HARD.
These are things that he did for FUN. When he actually fought, which is echoed in the videos of him sparring, he was a minimalist.
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Maybe if he had focused on fighting he would have been a great champ. Maybe not. Maybe he had no heart. We'll never know.
I wish you'd stop saying stuff like this. If you knew anything about Bruce Lee at all, you'd know that he was completely focused on fighting. Denying that is like denying that Ali was focused on boxing. His whole life revolved around it. What you MEAN is that if he chose to show off, seek out conflict in exchange for money, or choose a single style and be devoted to training that style he might have been a great champ. But then he wouldn't have been Bruce Lee.
The professional opinion of other great champs of the fighting arts of his era is that he would have probably been a Champion at whatever professional fighting he decided to do
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Truth be told I can name a dozen or more guys I think would bulldoze Lee. Cung Lee, to start. If you bring ground fighting into it the list is much longer.
Why do you think that ground game has anything to do with it? Lee was fast, strong, and trained extensively in groundfighting and grappling.
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As for Ali not being a fighter, come -the- fuck -on. This whole conversation is about fighting in a ring.
Yes, and you choose to have the opinion that ring fighting is the only thing that matters, which is wrong. And that with a hight, reach, and 20lb weight differential, Ali would hands down "easily" beat someone at least as strong, who's much faster, and who he's unfamiliar with in a fight where Lee has three months to game-plan, and Ali will largely be in the dark.
Maybe Ali's greatness would be able to overcome the lack of information, and being slow and uncoordinated in comparison, maybe. My gut says its not likely though.
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If you want to turn it into a jungle death match or back alley brawl then I choose General Kurtz.
As for being striped of his belt, again, give me a fucking break. He did not loose his belt because he was not a fighter but because he was not a killer.
I just turned your entire argument back on you. Now you know how ridiculous it sounds. I wouldn't use it anymore.
Claiming that Lee wasn't a fighter, because he didn't do it for fame, personal recognition, or money is about the same as claiming Ali isn't a fighter because he wouldn't go to war.
I maintain that boxing, while technically a type of fighting isn't anywhere close to pure fighting. Anything where you have a referee and judges is not a fight. It is a sporting event. Ali may have been a great fighter, but I cannot recall hearing about any fights he ever got into.
