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My Balmoral Boots - Page 50

post #736 of 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrigglez View Post
do you mean the instep that makes a V where the laces pull it together?

Indeed; I was under the impression that a 'bespoke' shoe would not have the V-shape.
post #737 of 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonneker View Post
Indeed; I was under the impression that a 'bespoke' shoe would not have the V-shape.

As I said, the leather will stretch over time, and their will no longer be a V. If the two sides came together from the beginning, then the shoe would soon be too big.
post #738 of 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisb0109 View Post
As I said, the leather will stretch over time, and their will no longer be a V. If the two sides came together from the beginning, then the shoe would soon be too big.
+1 I would only add, if the gap was much wider...perhaps a standard last and not the client's bespoke last was used. This happened to me on a standard last when I made my first balmoral boot with Clifford (and this wide gap existed on my 2 balmoral boots through G&G). It did not exist on my Ron Rider balmoral boot since the boot was quite large and roomy (to my liking)
post #739 of 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisb0109 View Post
As I said, the leather will stretch over time, and their will no longer be a V. If the two sides came together from the beginning, then the shoe would soon be too big.

Not true at all. Depends on many factors; not a catch-all situation.
post #740 of 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrigglez View Post
um i'm not sure what you mean, both those pics are of the same shoe.
do you mean the instep that makes a V where the laces pull it together?

I feel sorry for the maker, that you don't know, what the guys are talking about. irl the v shape conforms to yor foot...
post #741 of 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIDER View Post
Not true at all. Depends on many factors; not a catch-all situation.

Perhaps not always the case, but my experience has been that shoes with no "V" do stretch out to be too large, and shoes bought with a gap gradually move closer to a closed position over time.
post #742 of 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIDER View Post
Not true at all. Depends on many factors; not a catch-all situation.

It will also depend how the leather is cut. Calf leather stretches more in one than in the other direction.

The English rule is "tight to toe", the tightness goes length-wise for all pieces, so the stretch is circumference-wise. In Germany (and I would presume Austro/Hungary as well) the vamp (forepart) is cut with tightness length-wise, but for the quarters (sides) the tightness goes the other way, so German shoes will not stretch so much in the circumference as English ones will.
post #743 of 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post
It will also depend how the leather is cut. Calf leather stretches more in one than in the other direction.

Hi Bengal -

Exactly my point. I'm assuming RTW here, so the difference is usually the difference in calf and/or cutting. The biggest difference in RTW makers is the cutting philosophy - the better ones will cut correctly for the pattern and others, like an Allen Edmonds, will cut for economy - the economic cuttings need to have a pattern with this stretch built in as, well, it usually will. Depends on the factory.

Who is making RTW in Germany?
post #744 of 843
They do, do up all the way (so there no 'V') Infact I have them on now, no V, just two straight lines.
I'm very happy with the fit. I also have a low? Instep, I have shallow feet, that was one thing that was to be fixed with the last from Bruce because my previous boots needed a few insoles to bring my foot flush with the upper. I hadn’t done them up properly for the photo because i had just got them and was more concerned with getting them on my feet (I’d been waiting 5 months) and I’m impatient.
my apologies for that.
edit: also depends on what socks i wear.
post #745 of 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisb0109 View Post
As I said, the leather will stretch over time, and their will no longer be a V. If the two sides came together from the beginning, then the shoe would soon be too big.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Ay329 View Post
+1

I would only add, if the gap was much wider...perhaps a standard last and not the client's bespoke last was used. This happened to me on a standard last when I made my first balmoral boot with Clifford (and this wide gap existed on my 2 balmoral boots through G&G). It did not exist on my Ron Rider balmoral boot since the boot was quite large and roomy (to my liking)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RIDER View Post
Not true at all. Depends on many factors; not a catch-all situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post
It will also depend how the leather is cut. Calf leather stretches more in one than in the other direction.

The English rule is "tight to toe", the tightness goes length-wise for all pieces, so the stretch is circumference-wise. In Germany (and I would presume Austro/Hungary as well) the vamp (forepart) is cut with tightness length-wise, but for the quarters (sides) the tightness goes the other way, so German shoes will not stretch so much in the circumference as English ones will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RIDER View Post
Hi Bengal -

Exactly my point. I'm assuming RTW here, so the difference is usually the difference in calf and/or cutting. The biggest difference in RTW makers is the cutting philosophy - the better ones will cut correctly for the pattern and others, like an Allen Edmonds, will cut for economy - the economic cuttings need to have a pattern with this stretch built in as, well, it usually will. Depends on the factory.

Who is making RTW in Germany?

Many thanks for the responses; very helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrigglez View Post
They do, do up all the way (so there no 'V') Infact I have them on now, no V, just two straight lines.

Even better (I think).
post #746 of 843
How does it work with the bespoke Springline lasts after Cliff has made the shoes? He makes them into trees?

If you want another pair, do you need to get Springline to make you another pair? Does Springline keep your records on file (or pc)? Or do you need to visit them again?
post #747 of 843
I have to disagree to some extent. Leather is generally said to be "tight" when it is cut parallel to the backbone. But any piece, cut anywhere on the hide, will stretch some in every direction. That's the nature of leather. I think that tight to toe makes a lot of sense with regard to quarters...it prevents distortion of the quarters during lasting. I am not so sure about vamps. If the vamp is cut tight to toe, the chances of shoe walking out of shape increases significantly. But the really critical issue is where the components are cut vis-a-vis the hide itself. As Thornton points out, if the vamps, say, are cut from the butt, stretch in any direction is almost moot. Of course, this is one of the big issues with manufactured and most RTW footwear--as Rider points out, manufacturers invariably cut for economy and that means not only cutting critical components from marginal areas of the hide but laying them out almost like a jig-saw puzzle to minimize waste and scrap. There is no regard whatsoever to lines of stretch or tightness. [As an aside, most bespoke makers probably throw away a greater proportion of the hide (or use it for incidental purposes) than they actually use in the making of a shoe.] Bottom line...in my experience...is that regardless of how the quarters are cut, the facing will tend to stretch in the direction that the laces are being tightened and the facings will tend to come together over a period of time. This is especially true if the shoe is not a really good...snug...fit to begin with and/or the customer needs (or tends) to tighten the laces more than, say, another customer or a better fit. If leather didn't stretch...in all directions...it wouldn't accommodate the foot nearly as well as it does and more importantly, it wouldn't be the premier material for making shoes. And, parenthetically, styles of footwear such as full wellingtons and jodphurs and seamless wholecuts and one seam Chelseas would be almost impossible to make.
post #748 of 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
But the really critical issue is where the components are cut vis-a-vis the hide itself. As Thornton points out, if the vamps, say, are cut from the butt, stretch in any direction is almost moot.

What does that mean for shell cordovan?
post #749 of 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by srivats View Post
What does that mean for shell cordovan?
Sri, Well, shell is an exception...for one thing shell is a muscle sheath and not a hide or skin. I don't know of any other "leather" that is made from the same raw material or component of the animal. I'm not even sure that any other animal, other than horse or related species, has a "shell." But the consequence is that the fiber structure is different than for other leathers. Shell doesn't have a whole lot of stretch in any direction. Perhaps because the muscle sheath comes from approximately the same area on the animal as the butt referred to above. Beyond that, Nick Horween told me that ideally shell should be cut in a certain direction...IIRC, it was parallel to the backbone. But the reason he gave me was that the surface and surface colour would not match up if all components were not aligned in the same direction. Bottom line, according to Horween, is that there is a preferred direction but it is far more important that whatever direction, all pieces are cut in the same direction.
post #750 of 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by GBer View Post
How does it work with the bespoke Springline lasts after Cliff has made the shoes? He makes them into trees?

If you want another pair, do you need to get Springline to make you another pair? Does Springline keep your records on file (or pc)? Or do you need to visit them again?

To make a bespoke pair of shoe trees, Springline will need the last and the finished shoes. They turn a copy of the last, cut away excess wood, then they will fit the tree into the shoes by rasping material away. A good fitting bespoke shoe tree, fits like the original last, but is just a smidgeon smaller, so the trees can be easily inserted into the shoes (You probably will need a mallet to bang the last back into the shoe).

Numerous pairs of shoes can be made from the same last, equally that last can be altered for a different toe shape, different fit or for a certain type of shoe. (Only if you want a significant change in the heel height, you might need a different last altogether.) If you have worn the shoes for a while, you might ask for some alterations to the last before you commission the next pair, things like "a bit more room above the toes" or "snugger on the heel". Either Cliff or Springline would carry out those alterations, by either adding an additional layer of leather to give you more room, or by rasping down some wood to make things tighter.

Some firms prefer a different last for lace-ups and loafers.
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