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I want to get Strong or Lifting 101: A Beginner's Program - Page 2

post #16 of 27
3/27/09 at 7:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invicta View Post
This is exactly the kind of post that this thread is supposed to be fighting against. Vauge and ambiguous advice of highly suspect value.

3x a week should be reserved for geriatrics and heavy Olympic lifters.

Yes, beginners should train deads and squats on the same day. If you look at the eastern european training programs of the 80's especially the Bulgarian and Romainian teams (widely considered to be the best) you will see that they would have multiple training sessions a week where it was all leg work. Hell when I was training in college the heaviest days were deads and box squats (another much maligned movement that idots try and shit all over). It works if you're not retarded.

if you plan on not wasting your workout time then 5 days a week is too much for somebody whose not on gear. the CNS load is ridiculous.

the training methods of the 80's have been far superseded with modern methods, not to mention your average joe should not be training to elite standards for many reasons.

for any beginner or even intermediate weight lifter wanting size, strength or just to lose fat the big basic movements i gave earlier tied into a realistic program cannot be beaten. so dont fool yourself that you can.
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post #17 of 27
3/27/09 at 10:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dac View Post
if you plan on not wasting your workout time then 5 days a week is too much for somebody whose not on gear. the CNS load is ridiculous.

the training methods of the 80's have been far superseded with modern methods, not to mention your average joe should not be training to elite standards for many reasons.

for any beginner or even intermediate weight lifter wanting size, strength or just to lose fat the big basic movements i gave earlier tied into a realistic program cannot be beaten. so dont fool yourself that you can.

You can agree or disagree with the 5 day lifting thing, but the OP's exercises were pretty basic (and are basically variations of the 5 exercises you mentioned). It's not like he's suggesting swiss ball wrist curls or decline dumbell flyes.

In [i]Starting Stength[i], Mark Rippetoe does recommend a 3X per week program. However, he has trainees squatting every workout and deadlifting every other. On days when squatting and deadlifting are both done, he suggests 3 X 5 for squats and 1 X 5 for DL's. It can be and often is done. I do it often and find the squats are a great warm-up for the DL.
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post #18 of 27
3/28/09 at 8:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grayland View Post
You can agree or disagree with the 5 day lifting thing, but the OP's exercises were pretty basic (and are basically variations of the 5 exercises you mentioned). It's not like he's suggesting swiss ball wrist curls or decline dumbell flyes.

In [i]Starting Stength[i], Mark Rippetoe does recommend a 3X per week program. However, he has trainees squatting every workout and deadlifting every other. On days when squatting and deadlifting are both done, he suggests 3 X 5 for squats and 1 X 5 for DL's. It can be and often is done. I do it often and find the squats are a great warm-up for the DL.

im not going to get into the Rippletoads programme because its specifically designed in its own right and you should not chop and change pieces to match something else.

if you can squat and deadlift a reasonable amount then its too much on one day. as you said, they are both similar exercises and will definitely serve as a good warmup for the other. but maxing out both on the same day is too much.

his exercises may all be compounds, and may be similar, but they are not as good as the basic ones and for that reason this choice is not optimized.
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post #19 of 27
3/28/09 at 9:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dac View Post
im not going to get into the Rippletoads programme because its specifically designed in its own right and you should not chop and change pieces to match something else.

if you can squat and deadlift a reasonable amount then its too much on one day. as you said, they are both similar exercises and will definitely serve as a good warmup for the other. but maxing out both on the same day is too much.

his exercises may all be compounds, and may be similar, but they are not as good as the basic ones and for that reason this choice is not optimized.

Rippetoe's book is designed for beginning lifters and I didn't chop/change anything. He recommends 2 workouts A) Squat, Bench Press, Deadlift and B) Squat, Press, Power Clean that are rotated 3 times per week. Week 1) A,B,A Week 2) B,A,B. It's an excellent beginner's weightlifting book. Since it is designed for beginners; doing squats & deadlifts on the same day shouldn't pose a problem as the beginning lifter isn't going to be doing any serious weight on either exercise.

Your program is excellent too. The fact is, most beginning lifters get their programs from Muscle & Fitness and end up doing 35 sets of curls Tuesdays and Thursdays. Your program, the OP's program, and Rippetoe's program are each vastly superior to the crap most people do. I was in Barnes and Noble the other day and saw a lifting book titled something along the lines of Lifting So you Can Hook Up More Often, or something like that. I got a kick out of it because at least the guy was honest about his lifting philosophy.
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post #20 of 27
3/28/09 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grayland View Post
Rippetoe's book is designed for beginning lifters and I didn't chop/change anything. He recommends 2 workouts A) Squat, Bench Press, Deadlift and B) Squat, Press, Power Clean that are rotated 3 times per week. Week 1) A,B,A Week 2) B,A,B. It's an excellent beginner's weightlifting book. Since it is designed for beginners; doing squats & deadlifts on the same day shouldn't pose a problem as the beginning lifter isn't going to be doing any serious weight on either exercise.

Your program is excellent too. The fact is, most beginning lifters get their programs from Muscle & Fitness and end up doing 35 sets of curls Tuesdays and Thursdays. Your program, the OP's program, and Rippetoe's program are each vastly superior to the crap most people do. I was in Barnes and Noble the other day and saw a lifting book titled something along the lines of Lifting So you Can Hook Up More Often, or something like that. I got a kick out of it because at least the guy was honest about his lifting philosophy.


im aware of Rippetoes program, i was speaking about the justification of the OP's program using this program. in brief, just because its written in Ripptoes does not mean its ok to chop it and place it in your own programme.

to put it basically, 5 days a week is way too much CNS load even for the intermediate trainer. lat pull downs, dumbbell press and seated rows may be good exercises, but for the beginner or even intermediate trainer wanting size and strength hard and fast they are not optimizing their programme.

i havent given a program yet, but heres what im using currently;

Mon;
Back Squats - 10, 10, 8, 8, 5, 3, 1
Barbell Rows - 15, 15, 15,
Bench Press - 10, 8, 6, 4, F(wide grip short ROM)

Wed
Deadlifts - 10, 10, 8, 8, 5, 3, 1
Standing Barbell Press - 15, 15, 15

Fri
Back Squats - 10, 10, 8, 8, 5, 3, 1
Barbell Rows - 15, 15, 15,
Bench Press - 10, 8, 6, 4, F(wide grip short ROM)

after each session i do 30 minutes on the treadmill, 10x8kph, 10x9kph, 10x10kph + cooldown.

im not advocating this program to anybody because its simply tailored to my goals and my body but you usually get asked what you follow when you get into these 'debates'
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post #21 of 27
3/28/09 at 10:24am
Dac,
That's good stuff. We agree a helluva lot more than we disagree. BTW, I've been following Crossfit since 2003. I've done it long enough that I often come up with my own stuff (I don't always follow the WOD verbatim). Many people say that type of program will fry your CNS too. I'm 44 and have been making incredible progress using CF. I'm not saying it's a superior program, but I like the bang for the buck I get. I'm usually done with my workout in 20-30 minutes tops.
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post #22 of 27
3/28/09 at 10:31am
agreed. ive heard good things about Crossfit and Westside, not actually tried them myself though. my training changes drastically during summer since at uni i have access to a really good gym but at home the nearest one is too far away so i make do with dumbbells and cross-country running. might give CF or similar a try!
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post #23 of 27
3/28/09 at 2:22pm
Take a few weeks first to see what your body can handle before starting any major programs. Know your body and don't max out on anything. Also set a diet that you are most likely to follow.
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post #24 of 27
3/28/09 at 8:04pm
5 days a week is too much unless you're at a really advanced level and know what you're doing. The vast majority of people will benefit from the rest in between lifting days. 3-4 days a week max. Remember, you are basically destroying your muscle when you train. The healing process is just as important to gains as the breaking down part.
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post #25 of 27
4/11/09 at 2:31am
spontaneous point-important for beginners to actually know how to do these lifts and know what good form is. when i started, i had to have someone show me what the hell to do on just about everything because i had no idea.

also-beginners should know that, at least in my case, the biggest gains are in the first few months of training. so it's easy to get hooked!
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post #26 of 27
4/11/09 at 2:48am
Why are you all arguing about frequency being too much and such? Frequency is just total volume -- and ultimately workload -- over a period. It's only part of volume and in and of itself isn't a determinant of progress. Higher frequencies are usually used to spread workload over a period to optimize the total workload. Without knowing the workload the frequency argument is ultimately useless since squatting 5x/week with 1 set on each day is different from 5x/week with 5 sets on each day.
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post #27 of 27
4/11/09 at 3:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by why View Post
Why are you all arguing about frequency being too much and such? Frequency is just total volume -- and ultimately workload -- over a period. It's only part of volume and in and of itself isn't a determinant of progress. Higher frequencies are usually used to spread workload over a period to optimize the total workload. Without knowing the workload the frequency argument is ultimately useless since squatting 5x/week with 1 set on each day is different from 5x/week with 5 sets on each day.

Whether it's justified or not, realize that we're assuming that the trainee is not going to the gym and just doing one exercise in 15 minutes and leaving, but is doing a somewhat intense workout for an extended period of time (an hour or more). This is just typical human behavior and will definitely be the case if a trainee is following a popular program (even roughly) like SS, WS4SB, Bill Starr, etc. In this context, frequency will matter. Most people don't bother making qualifications for every possible situation but thank you for bringing it up just in case there is a strange fellow reading that indeed does bother to go to the gym to just do short low intensity workouts. I
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