lefty's random dog thread.

[lefty]

I don't see anything on that site that lists health tests, what they do with their dogs or even what dogs they own. Their Ten Commandments for Responsible Owners is ridiculous. If your friend is happy that's all that matters.

Jan more or less nailed it. BMs are a great looking dog, but everyone I know who owned have out their dogs down well before the dog was 10 due to health issues.

The Boerboel is a better choice - most people won't be able to tell the difference between the breeds - for health and working ability. I haven't seen many of them, but one I worked was the most athletic large dog I've ever seen. Be prepared to pay though - 2-3K for a pup.

BM:

BB:

lefty

 

[lefty]

Couple of clips of Boerboels working.

Cattle:

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Sch training (young dog with a few issues, but coming along nicely):

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Sheep:

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You'll notice how easily they move for big dogs. You'd be hard pressed to find a BM like this.

lefty

 

[Flambeur]

I love boerboels, very cool dogs. Lefty, do they still have the athletic and working ability because the breed hasn't totally been ******* by the breeders yet? I've also heard similar things about brasilian filas, how they are very much great working dogs despite the size. here are a couple of interesting fila vids.. Comments? I am actually surprised that this BM looks so much bigger than a fila, I thought usually it's the other way around.
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[NorCal]

Thanks all, he is happy as a pig in **** with his dog, so I suppose that is all that counts.

Those Boerboels look nice.

 

[lefty]

Originally Posted by Flambeur

I love boerboels, very cool dogs. Lefty, do they still have the athletic and working ability because the breed hasn't totally been ******* by the breeders yet?

There still are a good number of them that are working stock which is going to select for brains and soundness and while they are large there's nothing in the standard that calls for extremes - unlike the BM. They will get fucked up soon enough.

Originally Posted by Flambeur

I've also heard similar things about brasilian filas, how they are very much great working dogs despite the size.

here are a couple of interesting fila vids.. Comments?

I am actually surprised that this BM looks so much bigger than a fila, I thought usually it's the other way around.
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Seems pretty lights on its feet though
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The Fila standard calls for the dog to move with a "pace." That means both legs on each side move in unison as a pair. Camels move this way. Fila breeders will tell you this is an efficient gait, but I say bullshit. When they first came to NA they came with a hell of a reputation as a maneater. So they were tested hard. Most failed.

My guess is that Jan will tell you that the Tosa is a far superior athlete to the Fila and I would agree. I would say they would make a great compound dog (as would a Neo), but as a stock or PP dog I think there are better choices.

What bugs me about that first video is that an intact BM and Fila are more or less ignoring each other. While I wouldn't want them trying to kill the other dog I'd like to see some spark.

lefty

 

[JLibourel]

A few thoughts on some of the immediate foregoing:

It's interesting that the working Boerboels in the three videoclips lefty posted were all quite long-muzzled and looked a good deal less "Bullmastiff-y" than a lot of the Boerboels one sees. If I hadn't known otherwise, I would have assumed that dark Boeboel doing agitation was some sort of bandog. FWIW, a chap I used to know in the Tosa fancy got a Boerboel, but he was very disappointed with it. He said it seemed really stupid in comparision to the Tosas. (I don't know what his criteria were, but Tosas are very biddable and easy to train.) The only Boerboel I ever spent any time with seemed like a very nice dog, but he was only six months old. He subsequently proved to be quite dysplastic, sad to say.

I wouldn't entirely fault the Fila in the video with the Bullmastiff for not firing up. They're meant to be pack dogs. I don't know if Filas have much true "working ability." They have a naturally shy-sharp temperament (their famed "ojeiriza") that is supposed to make them naturally protective and good personal and property guardians. I've encountered some Filas that seemed like pretty good dogs, others that just seemed dangerous and crazy. Of course they carry all the baggage of giant-breed health problems--bloat, cancer, dysplasia and more.

In the couple of fights between Tosas and Filas I've heard about--one accidental at a rare-breed show, one a deliberate bump--they were one-sided maulings, predictably enough. The bump was a mismatch from the get-go, a 14-month-old Fila against a large 2-year-old Tosa. As one of my dog buddies who had owned and bred Filas remarked, "Filas are lousy fighters. They have no gameness."

 

[lefty]

Some thoughts on your thoughts.

I think the BB standard calls for a longer muzzle or at least one in proportion to the skull. Most of the ones I've seen have been nice looking dogs. But some were lacking much, if any, defense.

Maybe those two dogs live together, but still I would fault both for not firing up a little. My guess is that they're "emasculated" showdogs.

Ojeriza (an aversion to strangers) is an interesting concept in the Fila. I think they simply came up with a fancy way to describe a dog with a heavy social aggression and at times a severe shy-sharpness. Talking to breeders at the time I first say the breed they would stake out young puppies and have strangers come up and hit the dogs to bring out their natural ojeriza.. Okay. I've seen them fire up at the most inappropriate times, yet react badly to agitation unless cornered. I watched a Fila at a rare breed show tear apart a woman's car trying to get at whoever walked by but once outside the car he spun nervously at every noise. Personally, I wouldn't want one. Why take the beauty of a muscular molosser and lessen it with the softness of a bloodhound?

lefty

 

[JLibourel]

Originally Posted by lefty

Some thoughts on your thoughts.
Why take the beauty of a muscular molosser and lessen it with the softness of a bloodhound?

lefty

I don't know if I can go along with that! Even for a very educated eye, it is sometimes hard to differentiate between a Fila and a Tosa. My first Tosa Zuma was a red brindle, a very common color among Filas but rare among Tosas, and quite a few dog show judges and Fila breeders mistook him for a Fila. Show me a Fila with fairly short ears and a high ear-set, and I'm damned if I can tell him from a Tosa. Some Filas do look more houndy, with the long, pendulous ears and the very roached back that I would not normally mistake for Tosa. However, a friend of mine had a huge black Tosa ***** that he had imported from Japan. She was a dead ringer for a Fila--roach back, long ears and all. She also had a very Fila-like temperament. She was so human-aggressive that she was finally put down. A number of Filas have been exported to Japan, so I had to wonder.

I can recall another Fila that was owned by a family in nearby San Pedro that I used to see at rare-breed shows. The damn thing looked just like an English Mastiff--fawn with a black mask and an OEM-like build. They also had a more typey Fila. When I first saw that fawn dog when he was young, I thought they had just brought their English Mastiff to the ARBA show to keep the Fila company. I heard that dog was extremely human-aggressive.

Some Fila enthusiasts claim there has been a lot of spiking of Fila lines with Great Danes, English Mastiffs and whatnot. They may have a point. I know that some Tosa lines are heavily crossed with English Mastiffs, others with APBTs. In general I have found that the rare-breed molossers vary a lot more in physical type than the AKC dogs do. I encountered one dog I was almost certain was a black Tosa. Turns out it was a Neapolitan! I can also recall see one DDB ***** that looked like Boxer with a red mask, and so it goes.

Worst thing I saw involving a Fila was at a dog show when a Fila sprang up and went for a little boy who was walking no less than 10 or 12 feet from where the dog was lying. Luckily, the dog was stopped by a tether. It was gorgeous dog, a huge light brindle. The kid had given no provocation whatsoever. I believe that dog was from the "Dos Leones" (I can't recall the Portuguese equivalent) lines. They're supposed to be real hellers.

 

[lefty]

To my eye these represent a fairly typey Tosa, Fila and Neo. I may be off on the Tosa.

Which one looks the muscular athlete? Why would the Japanese mix other breeds into the Tosa now? Aren't they somewhat xenophobic and wouldn't that apply to their beloved Tosas? lefty

 

[JLibourel]

The Tosa picture isn't coming up in the above post, but I rather know what a Tosa looks like.

A lot of Neos and Filas I've seen are much tighter and more athletic looking than the dogs posted, which are rather extreme cases.

A lot of the really big Kochi-bred Tosas are mostly English Mastiffs and look like it. The Japanese are not particularly protective of the "purity" of the Tosa. The breed had its origins in what one student of the matter described to me as "an orgy of crossbreeding," putting just about any big, tough Occidental dog they could get into the mix. It is my belief that a lot of the foundation stock came from Spanish Presa-type dogs in the nearby Philippines. In any event, the Japanese have continued to mix in whatever they thought might improve the dogs. I seem to recall that Great Danes were added in the 1930s and a few Dogues de Bordeaux in the 1960s (although I don't why either would improve fighting ability). I think they regard the Tosa as essentially a non-native breed of no great antiquity and thus don't care about its purity.

 

[lefty]

Show type which the Fila and the Neo fit well. I just don't like the traces of Bloodhound (looseness and slop) in the Fila. Not my kind of dog. I like muscles as seen in this AB.

What denotes purebred purity in the Tosa? Can any dog enter a Tosa match? lefty

 

[JLibourel]

Originally Posted by lefty

Show type which the Fila and the Neo fit well.

What denotes purebred purity in the Tosa? Can any dog enter a Tosa match?

lefty

I suspect any dog that looked reasonably like a Tosa could enter a match. However, I suspect any dog that wasn't a Tosa might be too noisy in the ring. If a dog so much as growls or whimpers, he is disqualified.

The Japanese have matched Tosas experimentally with all manner of other dogs, but none have been really competitive, I'm told, except (predictably) the APBT. When a Tosa and a Pit are fought at spotweight, the Pit will more often win, but it is far from a forgone conclusion. If they are fought at catchweight, the Tosa will usually prevail if there is much of a size disparity. At least, that's what my principal informant, who was a Tosa fan, told me.

 

[lefty]

****** and lazy helper work means live bites.

http://shkola-orlova.ru/view/55525f3...ff8925b0.xhtml

lefty

 

[JLibourel]

Just shows agitation work is not without its risk.

I just wonder if that Mal "Vyatkin's Glock" was bred by Alex Vyatkin, who was one of the leading Presa breeders in the USA (and may still be for all I know).

 

[Stazy]

Originally Posted by lefty

****** and lazy helper work means live bites.

http://shkola-orlova.ru/view/55525f3...ff8925b0.xhtml

lefty

Why the hell would he hit the dog with an unprotected arm? Kind of had it coming, no?