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lefty's random dog thread. - Page 224

post #3346 of 3793
Quote:
Originally Posted by Find Finn View Post

I just liked the pictures. shog[1].gif

And I do too, most of them. Hard to get past the feathers on some of those hunting breeds even though it would be classified as breed standard by the AKC.

 

It is a fine line IMO and not sure what the answer is. You need a breed standard to maintain the breed. But I think the point of man interfering too much is the main issue. The standards seem to keep growing and even changing based on the judges opinion which is subjective at some point. The dogs temperament is also part of the show and about as subjective as you can get. You would be hard pressed to find another venue where you will see so many breeds, and most are very good dogs, than at a show. I have always found the shows interesting. My Toller has several ribbons from when he was younger including 3rd place from the National Specialty down in Alabama that year. But I saw enough overall that it turned me away from it. And he told me that he would rather I throw the bumper for him and give him a "real" job. smile.gif  

post #3347 of 3793
awwwwww. he so cuuuuutteeeeeeeeee
post #3348 of 3793
Breeding/showing issues aside, Westminster is a really cool event to attend in person. Backstage is the highlight, as all of the breeders/handlers are required to stay around all day/both days, and most are more than happy to chat when they're not prepping their dogs (having an obvious commercial interest in meeting potential customers). There's nothing else like it that I've ever experienced.
post #3349 of 3793
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbrown View Post

The breed that always comes to my mind in this context is the Pomeranian. Somehow they went from this:



To this:


Look at what the Seilers did to the line of English bulldogs that Georgia use as their mascots. It's a damned shame what they've done to that blood line, and I say this as a blood feud rival. They were beautiful dogs, once upon a time.
post #3350 of 3793
It's the 'obvious commercial' aspects that worry me the most. Although kennel Club registrations have plummeted in the US and the UK you must remember that they operate for profit and profit only. Because membership has reduced so drastically kennel clubs add more 'new' breeds to their register. This means that another breed is subjected to closed breeding a small gene pool and ultimately drastic genetic engineering in order to make commercial viable dog.
There are some horrific statistics about certain breeds having extraordinary rates of cancer or breathing problems leading to premature death. I cannot verify these statistics but there is no smoke without fire and I am sure we all know someone who has lost a pedigree dog prematurely due to an illness.

Have a look at these bulldog skulls, early 20th century on the left, recent on the right:

4ysujary.jpg

Imagine trying to eat and breath through that mess of a skull.
post #3351 of 3793
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLibourel View Post

^Yeah, showing and show breeding sure seem to ruin work function in dogs, most of the time anyway. I have come to despise dog showing.

At least with respect to bench variety English setters, I think your caveat applies. They are still enthusiastic and capable hunters.

Someone above recounted that a breeder was horrified that one of her puppies might be put to work hunting. I have not encountered that at all - even among breeders of top ES show dogs. In my experience, ES breeders are delighted for their dogs to get the chance to hunt birds.

Granted, the percentage of bench variety setters that actually get the chance to do it I'm sure pales in comparison to the field lines.

I noted with some disappointment that, among the 20 or 25 English setters entered at Westminster, only one of them had a hunting title (a dog from the same kennel as my boy's sire).

This dog is a grand champion show dog and MH:




**







This dog is one of the top ES show dogs in the country and has a hunting title:


**
post #3352 of 3793
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewi View Post

Look at what the Seilers did to the line of English bulldogs that Georgia use as their mascots. It's a damned shame what they've done to that blood line, and I say this as a blood feud rival. They were beautiful dogs, once upon a time.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/magazine/can-the-bulldog-be-saved.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

lefty

post #3353 of 3793

Really interesting. It's a subject that I'm very interested in learning as I hate when certain dogs are in fashion. Too often, a dog breed will rise to fame and a number of people then own a dog whose primary tasks is to work. These people then get upset when their dog isn't content to stay in a garden all day or has a high prey drive. The other side of it is that a breed will be overbred by irresponsible people, passing on genetic defects. In the case of the bulldog, breeders focused on a couple of traits that would ordinarily be considered a defect and exaggerated them to the point of disability.

Truly irresponsible and sad.
post #3354 of 3793
Quote:
Originally Posted by HansderHund View Post

Really interesting. It's a subject that I'm very interested in learning as I hate when certain dogs are in fashion. Too often, a dog breed will rise to fame and a number of people then own a dog whose primary tasks is to work. These people then get upset when their dog isn't content to stay in a garden all day or has a high prey drive. The other side of it is that a breed will be overbred by irresponsible people, passing on genetic defects. In the case of the bulldog, breeders focused on a couple of traits that would ordinarily be considered a defect and exaggerated them to the point of disability.

Truly irresponsible and sad.

Not to mention all of the dogs that end up abandoned as a result of the mismatch between the dog's needs and the owner's expectations...
post #3355 of 3793
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbrown View Post

Not to mention all of the dogs that end up abandoned as a result of the mismatch between the dog's needs and the owner's expectations...

The lament of every college undergrad who gets a dog...


Guess what mom and dad, in a couple months, you're going to get to adopt a second hand dog from your idiot child!
post #3356 of 3793
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbrown View Post

Not to mention all of the dogs that end up abandoned as a result of the mismatch between the dog's needs and the owner's expectations...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

The lament of every college undergrad who gets a dog...


Guess what mom and dad, in a couple months, you're going to get to adopt a second hand dog from your idiot child!

Very true. I remember when the Disney movie 101 Dalmations came out (edited to add: the cartoon that was re-released, not the original shog[1].gif) and there was a surplus of spotted dogs at the shelters. Same thing with Chihuahuas, St. Bernards and Huskies. It's been said many times before, but I would love to have people take courses and a short exam in order to own a dog, much like a firearm.

Here, we get discounts on the mandatory dog registration fee if we can show that we completed a course within the previous year. It works, but only to an extent I'm afraid and doesn't prevent idiots from buying dogs.
Edited by HansderHund - 2/21/13 at 1:54pm
post #3357 of 3793
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virginia Dandy View Post

At least with respect to bench variety English setters, I think your caveat applies. They are still enthusiastic and capable hunters.

Someone above recounted that a breeder was horrified that one of her puppies might be put to work hunting. I have not encountered that at all - even among breeders of top ES show dogs. In my experience, ES breeders are delighted for their dogs to get the chance to hunt birds.

Granted, the percentage of bench variety setters that actually get the chance to do it I'm sure pales in comparison to the field lines.

I noted with some disappointment that, among the 20 or 25 English setters entered at Westminster, only one of them had a hunting title (a dog from the same kennel as my boy's sire).

This dog is a grand champion show dog and MH:




**







This dog is one of the top ES show dogs in the country and has a hunting title:


**

 

 

That is because English Setters are everywhere, and the breeders want the hunting titles to stand out from the rest of the pack. Those are some great pictures especially the water retrieve by a Setter! Not something you see every day.  And very few MH titles for any breed at the end of the day truth be told.
 
The REAL question with English Setters however is… Llewellin or Ryman!! At least among those that actually hunt. In the early 80’s I went with a Ryman from DeCoverly kennels. They were one of the first ones that breed dual Setters (Field & Bench) after seeing the AKC wipe out the Irish Setter by the 60’s as a hunting dog. And one of the few places left to get a Ryman even today. Most of my friends own and hunt Lews out here. And all of my friends bird hunt and fly fish, which means they are well rounded individuals smile.gif And own Filson patched with duct tape which screams to the Orvis crowd no need to apply.
 
I do miss and still love the point of an English Setter. Good friend has been trying to get me to get another for a few years and is constantly sending me pics of his on point. 

 

Of course I have to give him grief about the belly band on his Lew, a Ryman wouldn’t need 2 e-collars! But wow can they hunt like most of the Setters I know. And these are hunting dogs, not show dogs. Hunting dogs are kind of rough around the edges and have even been known to drink-

 

And smoke

 

Another friend from Superior Wi. Setter on point with the best picture of a real point I have ever seen. If you hunt then this speaks volumes:

 

Of course no free lunch in life with dogs, this is his other Setter with a NO point! You can guess that this was a bumped bird. Or rather ran over in his words.

 

Then there is Lyco Setter. His description says it all:
“My female Igor. The lab technician (new girl) thought she had to heat up the frozen straw (microwaved it). Ugly looking dog but really flashy looking on the move, I think her confirmation and subsequent gait has something to do with it.”

*

 

And Setters do seem to have an ego bigger than their body even at a young age:

 

But thank goodness they have a sense of humor!

 

Yes I’d love to get a brace of Setters so that I can have a signature picture like this with backing:

 

But in real life in the Dakotas pheasants run and flush when the cover runs out, DON'T FLOCK SHOOT!!

 

And where I hunt ruff grouse in the Arrowhead there no hotels for miles and big woods with big thick cover, so I hunt out of a wall tent. Except for last year a lady friend wanted to go with me for a week so I found a cabin to stay in with electricity. No running water but it did have an outhouse, and even HD reality TV- a wood stove.

 

Only one of us had the presence of mind to take a book for rainy weather and I took one that a couple of people on here recommended. She grabbed it when the weather went bad one day and that picture is as close as I have gotten to Bandit since.
 
If I could find an English Setter that could retrieve solid every time I’d be very tempted to get another, or 2. Because they can certainly handle the big cover but it would most likely be a Llewellin out here.
 
post #3358 of 3793
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronRock View Post

Westminster FREAK show in my opinion. Those poor dogs are so inbred I bet many of them will be dead from cancer or some other ailment before their 5th birthday.

Kennel clubs - the world over - are horrifically inhumane profiteers. No other animal has been genetically bullied as much as mans best friend.

Rant over.

Out.

Rescue Mutts FTW!!!!!!!
post #3359 of 3793
heres hadley...got him almost a year ago from a local pitbull rescue. Been the best dog ive owned. His mom was full pit and his dad was some kind of hound...

and here he is relaxing in the back seat


Hes a really laid back fella...jealous though. When my wife kisses me goodbye, he HAS to break it up. With a new baby on the way, hopefully he'll be a good big brother.
post #3360 of 3793
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cold Iron View Post


It is a fine line IMO and not sure what the answer is. You need a breed standard to maintain the breed.

I agree- I think it comes down to the specific breed as to the effect of breeding for conformation VS utility. I can only speak from my experience with Belgian Tervurens (and some exposure to Groen and Malinois). The breeders view themselves as guardians of the heritage of the working aspect of the dog. The vast majority of breeders I have encountered work very hard to maintain the best qualities of the breed- not just the conformation "looks". They strive for quality working, herding dogs that ALSO do well in the show ring- a well balanced dog.

To that end, they are very protective of their breed, make it hard to even get a puppy unless you agree not to breed. They have vigorous and active rescue orgs, they look out for "bad" breeders. The result is some exceptionally versatile dogs who excel in herding, agility, shutzhund and french ring, tracking, S&R, etc...and do well in the show ring.

This is obviously much easier to do with a relatively uncommon breed such as a Belgian- one only need look at the Golden Retriever or even the GSD to see what can happen. There is a lot of worry already about the Malinois and its growing popularity as a status breed and over focusing purely on protection work and the the spectre of unstable dogs.
Edited by Thor - 2/26/13 at 9:32am
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