or Connect
Styleforum › Forums › General › General Chat › lefty's random dog thread.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

lefty's random dog thread. - Page 16

post #226 of 3745
Thread Starter 
Don't think it was a diatribe as much as him simply pointing out how difficult it is breed decent animals. Someone asked why Dobermanns were so screwed up. The answer is that very few breeders will kill a puppy for a fault when that same puppy can command thousands of dollars.

lefty
post #227 of 3745
Quote:
Originally Posted by lefty View Post
Don't think it was a diatribe as much as him simply pointing out how difficult it is breed decent animals. Someone asked why Dobermanns were so screwed up. The answer is that very few breeders will kill a puppy for a fault when that same puppy can command thousands of dollars.

lefty

But then he had to throw in the bullshit about one or two dogs having patches of the wrong colour of fur under their asses. I respect breeding for temperament and performance in the field. I don't respect breeding for stupid shit that's only relevant in the very fucked-up world of dog showing.

For the record my two most recent dogs were purebred Belgian Malinois. Both died early - one of leukemia at six, the other of a seizure at 10 months.

post #228 of 3745
Thread Starter 
In this case he's trying to maintain a breed that calls for an all white coat. The problem with the Dogo is that it would be very easy to lose type (especially colour) and revert to one of the foundation breeds, so the decision is made to cull.

You may agree or disagree with that but the breed is well served by the Argentinian hunters.

lefty
post #229 of 3745
Quote:
Originally Posted by lefty View Post
Don't think it was a diatribe as much as him simply pointing out how difficult it is breed decent animals. Someone asked why Dobermanns were so screwed up. The answer is that very few breeders will kill a puppy for a fault when that same puppy can command thousands of dollars.

lefty

You mean like killing a Rhodesian Ridgeback for lacking a ridge? Culling doesn't require you to kill the puppy, hold on to the dog and neuter/spay the thing so it can't be bred then sell it as a pet.

If your dog dies from a fucking boar in the process of trying to hunt test it, well that's your loss, period. I realize that people actually do still use dogs for their intended purposes, but a vast majority DO NOT. Meaning that dog that "didn't get cut" may make a fine pet and there may be absolutely nothing wrong with it, but in his SPECIFIC line of WORKING Dogos he has a higher bar which makes it more difficult for him as a breeder.

There are a number of reasons certain breeds are "screwed up". Some of the genetic diseases it may suffer from don't show up until later in life often after it has already been bred.

There's no intelligence requirement, certification or manual one has to read to become a dog breeder. A lot of really stupid people breed dogs of all types and they don't care or don't know enough to do it right.
post #230 of 3745
Quote:
Originally Posted by lefty View Post
In this case he's trying to maintain a breed that calls for an all white coat. The problem with the Dogo is that it would be very easy to lose type (especially colour) and revert to one of the foundation breeds, so the decision is made to cull.

You may agree or disagree with that but the breed is well served by the Argentinian hunters.

lefty

Are you saying the colour of a dog's coat might affect it's ability to accomplish some working task?
post #231 of 3745
Quote:
Originally Posted by unjung View Post
Are you saying the colour of a dog's coat might affect it's ability to accomplish some working task?

They breed color out of dogs to make them easier to see in the field and so you don't accidentally shoot them.
post #232 of 3745
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kempt View Post
They breed color out of dogs to make them easier to see in the field and so you don't accidentally shoot them.
Oh, didn't realize blind people and Dick Cheney did that much hunting. Christ, how blind do you have to be to not see your own dog because its ass is black?
post #233 of 3745
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kempt View Post
You mean like killing a Rhodesian Ridgeback for lacking a ridge? Culling doesn't require you to kill the puppy, hold on to the dog and neuter/spay the thing so it can't be bred then sell it as a pet. If your dog dies from a fucking boar in the process of trying to hunt test it, well that's your loss, period. I realize that people actually do still use dogs for their intended purposes, but a vast majority DO NOT. Meaning that dog that "didn't get cut" may make a fine pet and there may be absolutely nothing wrong with it, but in his SPECIFIC line of WORKING Dogos he has a higher bar which makes it more difficult for him as a breeder. There are a number of reasons certain breeds are "screwed up". Some of the genetic diseases it may suffer from don't show up until later in life often after it has already been bred. There's no intelligence requirement, certification or manual one has to read to become a dog breeder. A lot of really stupid people breed dogs of all types and they don't care or don't know enough to do it right.
RR without a ridge and a mismarked Dogo are two different things. If you reread the article he culled 2 and 3 by neutering them: In this litter A: Pup 1 ended-up bilaterally deaf and proven as such, so he was PTS and buried at 2 months of age, after being fed, vaccined, dewormed, and BAER tested ($$$). Pup 2 was a unilat, so he was neutered and given away for free to a hunter after…after doing all that was done with pup 1, except the part of PTS and bury (more $$$). Pup 3 had a big black patch on the birth of his tail, so he was given the same treatment as pup 2 (more $$$). As for the mismark or unilat making a nice pet, they're not creating pets. Pets are what got us into this mess in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kempt View Post
They breed color out of dogs to make them easier to see in the field and so you don't accidentally shoot them.
They don't shoot the boars they kill with the knife. But yes, a white dog allows you to see it from a distance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by unjung View Post
Oh, didn't realize blind people and Dick Cheney did that much hunting. Christ, how blind do you have to be to not see your own dog because its ass is black?
They often hunt at night and in the middle of a dog/boar fight, things get a little confusing. lefty
post #234 of 3745
Quote:
Originally Posted by unjung View Post
Oh, didn't realize blind people and Dick Cheney did that much hunting.

Christ, how blind do you have to be to not see your own dog because its ass is black?

Hey I'm not saying I agree with it lol, but pretty much every sporting dog/hound/terrier that is predominately white is so because some European royalty accidentally shot his favorite dog at one point and then demanded his servants that bred his dogs to "Only keep the white ones!"
post #235 of 3745
This whole topic makes me want to pull a Budd Dwyer.
post #236 of 3745
Quote:
Originally Posted by lefty View Post
RR without a ridge and a mismarked Dogo are two different things. If you reread the article he culled 2 and 3 by neutering them: In this litter A: Pup 1 ended-up bilaterally deaf and proven as such, so he was PTS and buried at 2 months of age, after being fed, vaccined, dewormed, and BAER tested ($$$). Pup 2 was a unilat, so he was neutered and given away for free to a hunter after…after doing all that was done with pup 1, except the part of PTS and bury (more $$$). Pup 3 had a big black patch on the birth of his tail, so he was given the same treatment as pup 2 (more $$$). As for the mismark or unilat making a nice pet, they're not creating pets. Pets are what got us into this mess in the first place. They don't shoot the boars they kill with the knife, but yes, a white dog allows you to see it from a distance. lefty
I read the article and understood he did neuter several and sell them as pets, I was more responding to what you said about Dobermans. I'm also aware they kill the boar with a knife and not a gun. 'Someone asked why Dobermans were so screwed up. The answer is that very few breeders will kill a puppy for a fault when that same puppy can command thousands of dollars." Look at a lot of the "issues" Dobermans suffer from, I'm sure you are familiar with them. A lot of them are not testable and don't present themselves until after maturity is reached. Hell most people don't even sell their dogs on spay/neuter contracts and owners rarely even take them to the vet. How is a RR without a ridge any different from a "black patch on the ass of a Dogo" as one other poster put it? They are both minor aesthetics that don't really have anything to with the performance of the dog. I guess if you get confused in hand-to-hand dog/boar/human knife fight and bury your knife in the ass of your dog, well fuck, that sucks. They are in the "breed standard" so anything less is unacceptable. Breeders selected for the ridge because anecdotal evidence suggested those dogs made better hunters. I've met a lot of happy, healthy RR and their owners, none of them hunt lions. How is it that "breeding for pets" got us into this mess? I think you mean idiot breeders bending to the whim of public demand to produce quantity, not selecting for traits which may make wonderful companions in this modern age. I have nothing against a breeder trying to preserve a set of traits which match the original purpose of the breed, but at the same time that breeder and future dog owner has to recognize the added difficulty in doing so BEFORE going into the whole thing. EDIT: Breeding dogs is not a money making venture if you're doing it right. It has to be a serious hobby that is both very money and time intensive. The best breeders I've met do it out of a love for the dog, nothing more.
post #237 of 3745
lefty, I know you have a lot of admiration for the Dogos in Argentina, but I have long had the impression that most of the American stock is even more physically unsound and generally screwed up than most of the rare-breed molossers...and, as you well know, that's saying a lot! Have any number of them been used for catch-dog work or similar tasks in this country? I have been told that when Dogos have matched against Tosas in Japan, they have acquitted themselves better than similar breeds, e.g., Presa Canario, American Bulldog, those big Pakistani fighting dogs (I forget the name--"Bully Cutha" or something?), etc.

The breeder's comments you cited just reinforce my conviction overall of how damn unhealthy dogs in general are these days. I really wonder if I want another one.

Given that most puppies are sold at 7-10 weeks of age, how much can anyone really tell about soundness and temperament? I am aware of various "puppy temperament tests," but these were mostly developed for Labs or GSDs and usually don't tell you much about potential working ability. Obviously, if a puppy is especially bold or timid, you may be able to draw some conclusions...but beyond that? I'm thinking of the breeder's comments about the one young Dogo who seemed to be holding back just a bit with the hogs. Are you going to be able to descry traits like that at eight weeks?

The Dogo man is obviously a very conscientious breeder, but frankly, a lot of people in the dog breeding game are unethical greed-heads. I think this is particularly true in the rare-breed orbit, where people often charge ridiculous prices (and frequently have leftover youngsters they couldn't move at the preposterous prices asked). I know this was certainly true in Tosa world. I have said of least one Tosa breeder and I could probably say it of a number of others that if Satan came up from hell and started breeding Tosas, I would rather do business with him: He'd be much more intelligent and interesting to talk to, and his business ethics couldn't possibly be any worse!
post #238 of 3745
Thread Starter 
He didn't sell them as pets, he gave them to hunters.

This is from the original 1928 standard:

Coat: Completely white. Any marking or spot of any color must be disqualified as an atavism (white dogs showing strong black pigmentation on the skin should be considered non-apt for breeding, as this physical trait may appear and become predominant in offspring).

While a mismarked dog may make a good hunter, they don't want them directly adding to the genepool as the white colour can be lost quite quickly. The Dogo and the hunter depend upon that colour to hunt, the RR does not need his ridge to do his job (whatever that is).

While working dogs can make decent pets, I don't believe it should be encouraged to the extent that it is now.

FWIW, I know plenty of people that breed decent dogs and make a good living doing so.
post #239 of 3745
Thread Starter 
^^ It's all a crap shot, Jan.

I agree that most Dogos in the US are probably shitty dogs.

lefty
post #240 of 3745
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLibourel View Post
The Dogo man is obviously a very conscientious breeder, but frankly, a lot of people in the dog breeding game are unethical greed-heads. I think this is particularly true in the rare-breed orbit, where people often charge ridiculous prices (and frequently have leftover youngsters they couldn't move at the preposterous prices asked).

THIS!

I didn't want to stereotype or group a set of dogs that already have their own public image issues, but so many breeders of the rare fighting/protection/guard dogs are extremely unethical and out to make a buck.

Don't get me wrong the same can be said of Chihuahua breeders or (not sure about the rest of the country) Bernese Mountain Dog breeders up here in the PNW, the things are EVERYWHERE. Anytime a dog becomes popular people come out of the woodwork and start breeding the crap out of them regardless of health, temperament etc.

JL, I'm not sure about the health thing. I mean it's completely anecdotal I realize and I haven't taken a look at statistics but it seems for every dog owner I talk to that has lost pets below the 10 year mark there's one that has had a dog that lived 10-14 years.

There are a lot of "bigger" breeds that I like, but I refuse to consider as I don't want to be a "lucky one" that has their companion live past the age of 7.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Chat
Styleforum › Forums › General › General Chat › lefty's random dog thread.