Worst experiences

I've noticed that we like to criticize several well known clothing companies, and will even name the salesman or tailor sometimes.

However, after reading Mr. Kabbaz's statements about the importance of reputation, I think its important that we take a step back and ask ourselves if we would feel comfortable making the same accusations against some of our vendors who frequent this forum. If not, how come? I only ask that we extend the same courtesy to those companies as we have to the vendors who frequent this forum.

Like Mr. Kabbaz pointed out, one's reputation is one of the most important things in his industry. And, when we pile on some of these companies, we are damaging their reputation and this has serious consequences. They all have workers they employ whose jobs are at risk if we destroy their companies reputation.

I have my own company and I would love customers to be critical of my company if they will do the same with my competitors. All companies have shortcomings in various places but I believe my own company would stack up well against the competition. Fair critisicm is always welcome as long as it is not slanderous and unjustified.

As far as hurting employees by bad mouthing companies, it may be those employees that can internally try to focus on fixing some of the problems. If not, they should keep their resume up to date and be on the lookout for a new job. I would not feel comfortable in my job if the company I worked for was losing market share due to its deficiensies.

In short, keep slamming companies when justified.

In short, keep slamming companies when justified.

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I think that the point esquire was trying to make wasn't that we shouldn't critize companies, but that it seems that people are quick to criticize companies where nobody from that company posts to defend its reputation, but not so quick to criticize companies run by forum members. Personally, I haven't used any of the companies yet of forum members (though I have my eye on one of FIH's ties), so I can't comment on their quality, but if somebody is unsatisfied about a product made by a forum member, they should be even-handed about laying on the criticism.

Just my two cents...

Companies destroy their own reputations via bad products and bad service.  Publicizing these things may speed the companies' demise, but does not cause it by itself.

As AK and others have noted, everyone screws up once in a while.  Assuming that this is a relatively rare occurrence, how the vendor resolves the dispute/corrects the error makes its reputation what it is.

For instance, in a recent thread, Jester got a suit from Chan that didn't look so good.  But since Chan has a reputation for generally good work and good customer service, many of us are waiting to see how Chan responds. I, for one, hope it will maintain its good reputation for service.

The only danger with virtual communities such as these is people posting falsely or libelously, or more innocently not taking reasonable steps to resolve the dispute before slamming some vendor in this forum.

Who said, "let nobody dare say something false, let nobody fear say something true"

Companies destroy their own reputations via bad products and bad service.  

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Saks Off fith in Woodbury commons did it to me twice.. Anyhow i've only bought items from Chris on the forum (2 pairs of Grensons and a pair of Magnannis). And i only have good things to say. He let me return the Magnannis that didn't fit and didn't give me any trouble. Other than that i can't complain about any other individuals but hope to be making purchases from Rider and Carlo later in the next few months.

I also think that those who do sell on this forum have heard the bitching from us member and don't want to be a part of that. Most of our complaints are from larger business T&A is a recent one and me with Saks who if they lose one customer is not a huge deal to them. But for smaller business on this forum realize how important customer service is (and may be why they are hear giving their insight on fashion to potential customers) and would not screw customers over as they would like to have their business again and again as they are not going off of a name but off of their service and quality of products.

The only danger with virtual communities such as these is people posting falsely or libelously, or more innocently not taking reasonable steps to resolve the dispute before slamming some vendor in this forum.

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Hear, hear. I think the beauty of these fora is that anyone can say anything at any time. Â BUT, it is only fair that the complainant has exhausted every option in trying to rectify the problem with the offending party (company, store, vendor, salesman, tailor, etc) before posting their dirty laundry here. Â There are two sides to every story. Â Really. These institutions - no matter how big or small - are real people. Eeek, I'm starting to sound sensitive.

I Screw up.... but less and less now that we are getting infrastructuire caught up

...just figured I'd kick my own ass first.

I Screw up.... but less and less now that we are getting infrastructuire caught up

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As a Carlo Franco customer, I feel compelled to tell a brief story of one of Chuck's alleged "screw ups." I received one of his seven folds for Christmas. But the tie was noticeably asymmetrical. I contacted Chuck and returned the tie. He quickly dispatched a replacement that was more than satisfactory.

Inevitably, every company has its less than shining moments. But sometimes a "screw up" is where a vendor really earns his stripes with a customer, where you get the chance to see how well that vendor can rectify things. By that standard, Chuck is a gent I will continue to do business with, well into the future. It doesn't hurt that his tie, among the hundreds that I have, is easily one of my favorites.

The bottom line for me is how the company is going to handle problems - it really is the service. I have my own companies - I tell my clients/customers upfront that we will make mistakes BUT we will be there to fix them. (I'm not in the clothing industry) We have had success largely because we compete against large faceless institutions that aren't responsible for their mistakes. A mistake is passed off and becomes your burden to prove/resolve. Our customer's standards have become low - they are thrilled when they can just get somebody to take their call. I must say thanks to my competition for lowering the bar.

I was disappointed with the suit results from ww Chan as posted on this site but I too am awaiting their response or non response. My first suit from them wasn't exactly what I wanted but I expected to tweak it anyway. I knew that since I didn't have time for measurements and fittings in Hong Kong it wouldn't be exactly right. (I too had a little too much padding in the shoulders) But I will say that in the next suit they made adjustments that made me happy.

Chuck and Jill had some problems but they quickly resolved them and that makes them a first rate company in my book. Most importantly they admitted things and fixed them rather then allowing things to continue. They made things right when they found out - end of story. That is what counts for me. And my next order was for three ties and the next one will probably be for 5.... I know that no matter what they will be there standing behind the tie as it may be to make things right. I have to compliment them on their outstanding service.

I understand that if I am in a Marshall's or FBasement that my service level is going to be basic just and in and out. But ww Chan advertised a suit that fit and I would hold them to that standard.

But I will admit that clothes are a luxury that I indulge. When I do this I expect an experience. I probably expect more in this area of my life then others. I'm probably too just a little pickier.

I think for a lot of the people on this forum clothing is a passion so it is natural if they are emotional or hard on somebody when they don't return the passion in an excellent piece of clothing or service.

I have purchased from many, many ofl the folk on this and AA who are also merchants. For example, I have purchased shoes from Rider, Chris, and DiscoStu, ties from Chuck and Jon, a shirt from Chuck and miscellaneous other purchases from other folk. (Sadly both Darren and Alex are out of my price range.) I am also going to visit Carl at Cego for shirts in the fall.

My basic motivation for all of these choices is service. Each of these folk has earned our trust not only by posting informative and useful information (with occasional Northerner bashing) to this forum, but also by standing behind their products and delivery system. For example, when I expressed an interest in examining a brown tie or two from Jon, he shipped me two dozen and invited me to choose what I wished and return the rest. This is truly old-fashioned relationship buidling that turns a forum like this into a small-town main street.

So I do believe that we have a higher obligation when we criticise fellow forum members with whom we do business. I think we need to make sure that (1) the criticism is accurate; (2) the seller has been given a fair opportunity to correct the problem; and (3) the seller is given a full and fair opportunity for rebuttal. While I think the first two criteria might apply to all criticism, the third is particularly important here.

One last thought that is raised by an unfortunate incident involving Alex. Irrespective of whether it is fair or not to go after the product, pricing, or service of one of the merchants/artisans who post here, attacks that go to character and moral turpitude ought to be leveled, if at all, only with the willingness to document the claim. Otherwise, such contentions can border on libel and are unfairly injurious to one's livelihood.

I find the notion that one should hold their tongue when it comes to criticism contradictory to this forum, which is built on sharing information. If one of you has had bad service, or an inferior product from a tailor, shirtmaker, or shoe shop, I for one want to hear about it, and am fairly certain most everyone here would as well. One can (and should) be informative without being malicious.

I hazard to guess that Esquire's post was motivated by the numerous negative posts about Turnbull & Asser. But if T&A has been making inferior shirts or providing inferior service (and I am not a customer, so I am not supporting or denying these claims), why should the dissatisfied remain mute? It is not our responsibility to maintain a company's reputation. In fact, I think the criticism is a helpful thing.

Also, I don't believe a customer has to wait until the maker or shop rectifies the problem before posting here, so long as this point is made clear.

Assuming that this is a relatively rare occurrence, how the vendor resolves the dispute/corrects the error makes its reputation what it is.

For instance, in a recent thread, Jester got a suit from Chan that didn't look so good.

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Yes, but in that Chan thread, that poster ripped the company without ever first trying to reach Chan about any of these problems, and seeing what their response was. Two different people wrote about the earlier struggles Carlo Franco had with his products. Yet, how come there weren't any posts before that mentioned those problems? Instead, they waited until all those problems were fixed.

Will this poster also write an apology with the same vigor he attacked Chan if it responds correctly? Some people don't visit this forum everyday, or only look at the threads which have the most responses or maybe just read through the first few pages of a thread. All they'll remember is that Chan Sucks.

It seems some people responded that they were less likely to buy Chan from now on.

I also found it disturbing that people decided to chime in with unrelated specualtion as well as lies about the lack of fitting as to why Chan's quality would be so inferior. Strangely, they could have used the same speculation for some of the products of the merchants on this forum.

Let's look at some of the assertions:
1) No heritage or history, therefore it must Suck. You could also use that against many of the startups here.

2) Poor wages= poor quality. Does anybody ever accuse Vass in Hungary of having poor quality because its labor costs are lower than those in Italy or England?

3) The problems are typical of all overseas tailor/shirtmaker, therefore hard to communicate with and get corrections. Any corrections would take a long time to correct. And, isn't Darren Beaman also a overseas tailor as well.

4) Communism destroyed the culture of hard work and artistic aesthetic. But, wouldn't that be true for both Hungary and China?

I suppose its human nature to see the same action commited by two different persons through the prism of your relationship with those two. If you're friends with one of them, you'll make excuses for them. But, if you're enemies with one of them, you'll blame that person.

Its also human nature to fear and exclude the 'outsider'. But, that doesn't make it right or acceptable.

As far as hurting employees by bad mouthing companies, it may be those employees that can internally try to focus on fixing some of the problems.  If not, they should keep their resume up to date and be on the lookout for a new job.  I would not feel comfortable in my job if the company I worked for was losing market share due to its deficiensies.

In short, keep slamming companies when justified.

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Yes, but they were also slamming Chan because the people there are Asian. People disparaged the skills and work ethic of all Asians.

So, unless these employess can change their skin tone, it won't matter if they update their c.v. in the face of accusations that asians are somehow less dedicated and can't consistenlty produce quality work. In fact, this accusation was made against asians across many different fields.

It won't matter if they try to find a job in a different industry if all sectors in Hong Kong is smeared with the same brush of poor consistent quality.

Would it be fair if somebody started accusing all Hungarians of being poor workers and not capable of producing consistency in quality?

I had a horrible experience with Hickey Freeman MTM, posted elsewhere on the forum with pictures. On one suit, they had to make two suit jackets, getting the first completely wrong. The second was even worse in its own way. It was simply cut wrong. After an infuriating and impossible experience with the sales staff and tailors, I took the horrible clothes they made for me, never to return.