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First Chan suit received - Page 7

post #91 of 161
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The best beer brewed in Canada is the Kirin Lager and Kirin Ichiban they make for the North American market.  
Do they serve it at Dorsia?
post #92 of 161
Mr. Policy will not be joining us for the rest of his life. Perhaps this discussion can return to some useful subject.
post #93 of 161
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Please note: it's not that I don't respect the work of a tailor, but in Asia, people are not as dedicated in their work than one would find on the Row or in Italy.
What is it about fashion that allows this kind of blatant racist, xenophobic bashing with absolutely no rebuke? You insult gays and people jump down your throat. Call Asians lazy and people completely ignore it as if it's gospel. I haven't seen this kind of racist, xenophobia since I posted pics of my botched suit. I hope for your sake Jester that they make due on that suit, it looks precariously close to the suit I had done at another Asian tailor. At least people haven't accused you of being a mismeasurer.
Damn, I've to wake up to this .... I'm only up to page 4 at this moment, but just need to clarify this, since I was one of the first posters. I am Asian; actually to be exact, I am from Hong Kong, even though I have spent most of my adult life elsewhere. My experiences with local tailors are no less than Marc's experiences with tailors from the Row or in Napoli, so I think I can speak with authority here. Yes, I would reiterate my statement (in essence), that tailors here are not as dedicated in their work than tailors I've known on the Row or in Italy, or even in New York. This is a fact that local tailors, regardless of price (those who know me will also know that I judge a product strictly by merit, never price), are incapable of producing product of consistent quality. Note: I never, ever, said that they are incapable of producing a quality product; it is the consistency that a consumer needs most. And this phenomenon can be seen across many industries here, from local restaurants to local (or China-made) tangible goods to tailors. However, in the case of food and tangible goods, consistency is not something to be proud of even in other places, so I don't stress that as much. In tailoring, or other form of arts equivalent, the differences are much more apparent. I have commissioned numerous pieces from local tailors (it's my little addiction, even though none has produced what I wanted, I still continue commissioning, improving if only a little from the previous work), and also from tailors from the Row and in Italy, and I have to honestly say that my meager experieces elsewhere are more enjoyable than those here, even though I get to go for fittings much more often (three, sometimes four fitting for a suit). It is quite coincidentally that this comes up today. I was just at a fitting yesterday for some linen shirts and pants (to match my Borrelli white jacket, remember?) and, as usual, found some little irregularities in the shirt. It is absolutely ok (hey, I could never play a piece note-perfect either). I brought up the topic of consistency with my tailor, and he admitted that he will never be able to produce that kind of consistency found in Row tailors --- I am only talking about simple things, like making collars that are symmetric or sleeves length exact. Note: I never, ever said that he was not capable of making a great shirt, it's just that it is not sustainable and consistent. Even at Ascot Chang, every shirt comes back with varying level of pattern-matching: sometimes excellent, sometimes not as good. See if you can find that in Borrelli or Battistoni. I am not racist, but I am a realist when comes to consuming. I have few interests but know what I am doing within those, and I never looked down on anybody, especially me myself being a 100% pure bred Chinese. Having lived in different places make me realize that different people are indeed capable of producing different kinds of work; and I think we are each created with different levels of abilities. Ask Koji: who are the most diligent students in the world? Come on, you can't beat students from China or Russia, who, at an early age, practice 12 hours a day --- now, these are people who can play note-perfect. But in the world of sartorial arts, I am sorry to say, but Hong Kong is just not the place. You are trying to tell me that Kong Wo (sp?) shoemaker at Princes' building here is comparable to Lobb, or even second-rate makers in Italy? But let me tell you, that's the best shoemaker in Hong Kong, and every billionare is a customer there. And again, no, their work is not consistent, to an extent that little people like me can see 'defects' or inadequacies in their work with bare eyes. Let me get to page 5 ...
post #94 of 161
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(Patrick Bateman @ April 25 2005,16:04) The best beer brewed in Canada is the Kirin Lager and Kirin Ichiban they make for the North American market.  
Do they serve it at Dorsia?
It's a great way to wash down those $4 Japanese apple-pears I get at Gristedes.
post #95 of 161
LOL
post #96 of 161
Naturlaut - That was quite well said - and logically so. Thank you for your absolute clarity. As a maker, I would agree with you. Quality is absolutely secondary to consistency. That is not to say quality isn't the be-all, end-all, but I would much prefer to know that what I receive will be the same each time I order it. To drone on just a tad more and be more specific, in my studio we regard the subject as follows: Shirtmaking is both an art and a science. The art lies in striving to create works of beauty. The science lies in engineering those works to fit as exactly the same as the previous one, each and every time. Which is the easier? Without question or doubt: The art.
post #97 of 161
Sorry, J, for putting you through this. It was certainly not my original intention. To quote Manton in essence, my comment was stated mainly 'as-a-matter-of-fact' but not a racist remark. For one thing, we, the Chinese, are trying to make Western-styled clothing, without the tradition and generations of expertise, as well as the environment. Kind of like playing Chinese music in London, where it is considered as exotic (I doubt if the London audience will equate Chinese music as art music on the same level as Handel or Williams). If you try conveying the idea that sartorial art is an Art (which I think it is) here in Asia, I am afraid you might be doing it in vain. On the other hand, if you try to degrade Chinese opera, you are most certainly going to get a beating. As an artist myself, I will never attribute the quality of the suit to the cost of producing it. I have had low-priced suits made in Rome, and it turned out to be amazing for the money (I don't want to advertise here, but it was 800 Euro, about the same price as Chan --- actually less by the exchange rate then; consistent work, fits well, excellent craftsmanship). I am comparing apples to apples here: Chan, Ascot Chang, etc., are the best of the bunch here in Hong Kong --- the A&S, Battistoni, Lobb of this city, but they are no where close. No, I don't mean quality, I mean the dedication and aesthetic value. As I said, I have kept on being a customer of numerous tailors here even though none has produced even close to the 800 Euro suit I had in Roma. For me, commissioning a suit brings back to whole idea of 'patrons for the arts' back in 18th, 19th century, and the whole process of communicating with a craftsman and an artist truly enobles one's spirit (or so I naively think). Honestly, I don't NEED another suit or shirt, but to be supportive of an art quick diminishing while looking good is certainly addictive for me. I would start this in another post, but am too lazy to. Whatever is going on in the forum, I have the greatest respect for all the craftsman here: Mr. Kabbaz, Mr. Beaman, and many others. Just a word to fellow bespoke customers: when you visit a tailor/shirtmaker/shoemaker, don't go there because you needed a suit/shirt/shoe. Treat the tailor/shirtmaker/shoemaker as an artist and you will receive something far exceeding. Instead of 'making' and 'buying' a new suit as you'd tell others, start thinking along the line of 'commissioning' an artwork, whether it is from a tailor who charges $800 or $5000. Every craftsman has earned to right to be respected as one, and I view evey failed piece not entirely as the fault of the craftsman, but of the patron. Ascot Chang treated me like nobody at the beginning, since I'm 'only' Asian (Caucasians usually receive better treatment among Chinese) and quite young, but over time, they have come to realize that I am not a billionaire who throws thousands of dollar for the sake of having a large wardrobe, but one who commissions a shirt born out of an creative impulse. This has greatly improve the quality of my commissions from various tailors, as they now put much more dedication in our suits. I say this in good spirit: Mr. Jester, the suit is obviously far from what you had in mind; so take this as a experience, and really put yourself in the same creative spirit as the craftsman during a fitting. I am sure the ensuing product will be much better.
post #98 of 161
ROFL. Okay, couple points... 1. If Chuck has a boyfriend I don't know about I can deal with that - if he is messing up my supple fabrics I'll #%$&# kill him. 2. The trade high school Chuck dropped out of was Ole Miss, a year after getting his MS degree and a bit short of his PhD. 3. ...he also had 3 years of Latin and spent years on the debate team. Oh, I suppose that is clear to Policy and those who slowed to watch this trainwreck at this point. 4. Joke about Chuck's stupidity all you like, he'll probably join in... but back off my ties little fella.
post #99 of 161
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Joke about Chuck's stupidity all you like ...
Aw, c'mon. Be nice. Chuck's stupidity is nothing to joke about. We all love him despite his shortcomings.
post #100 of 161
sooooooooooooooo....on to far more important issues...what did Chan say when you contacted them?
post #101 of 161
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he also had 3 years of Latin
I had no idea Chuck was Latin. I guess Latinos make excellent ties too. Sona si latine loqueris.
post #102 of 161
Naturlaut - I think that as a general statement it is quite easy to differentiate between when someone is making a general comment sans evil intent and when someone is being nasty, obnoxious and generally disagreeable. I don't think anyone here would be terribly likely to describe you as hostile or mean spirited. Kabbaz: Thanks for sticking up for me. Someone the other day said you were stupid, ugly and a lousy shirtmaker and I set him straight. You are a fine shirtmaker and I told him so. Policy: LOL, yes, I am lacking in masculinity and education. I bow to your superior intellect and will brush up on my Latin and debating skills. Thank you for pointing out my shortcomings so that I can learn to read and then order some self help books. Hopefully your insightful, on topic, critique of my shortcomings will allow me to become a better man and represent the gay derelict community more eloquently in the future. J: I know, I know... I'll stop now.
post #103 of 161
Thread Starter 
My god, what have I wrought? Hi, I'm the original poster, and I was on a plane for a while, or I wouldn't have let so much go by without comment--not that I was expecting such a response. Let me address a few random points right now, without attempting to get everything, or to attach these comments to the posts to which they reply. I haven't yet heard back from Chan, though I did e-mail politely expressing my disappointment. Several people commented that a main problem is the small number of fittings relative to (I assume) Savile Row or other high-end bespoke/MTM. I disagree. My Hemrajani suit had no fittings, just a measuring, and it was vastly better even on arrival, and better still after some tweaking. (BTW the original thread about this suit, along with some horrific photographs, is at First Hemrajani suit.) The things that were most problematic in the end--the shoulders, the waist shaping, the lapel height, the button placement--were all things that I was concerned with from the very start, based on Patrick's comments (as I reported at the time). This was not a case of mis-adjusting something because not enough time was spent (and, as someone else observed, this was not a 5-10 minute thing, it was at least a half-hour each time). At my measurement I wore a Savile Row suit; at the fitting I wore a conservatively styled Zegna. In both cases I expressed a liking for these suits; I wasn't looking for something different. Thanks to the early posters who apologized for criticizing the suit, but of course there was no need to apologize (to me at least), as I agree with your criticisms.
post #104 of 161
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he also had 3 years of Latin
I had no idea Chuck was Latin.  I guess Latinos make excellent ties too.     Sona si latine loqueris.
Uhm... I think she misunderstood when I said "I had a Latina for three years"... better not to dredge that one up.
post #105 of 161
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My god, what have I wrought? Hi, I'm the original poster, and I was on a plane for a while, or I wouldn't have let so much go by without comment--not that I was expecting such a response.
LOL Sorry Jester, we totally threadjacked you and exacerbated J's hangover from this weekend's various dramas. Hope everything works out well with the alterations and best of luck. Apologies for the blatant if sometimes entertaining trainwreck which originally was a sane and useful thread :-) Mea Culpa (did I use that right?) Chuck
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