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First Chan suit received - Page 5

post #61 of 161
I have just got to agree with Chuck, the whole Special Olympics line was insensitive. Using disabled kids as a humor reference to make a point is inappropriate. On a slightly different point. We each bring differing levels of knowledge to this and the AA forum. I am a white belt to Alex, Manton, Chuck, Rider, Darren, Jon, etc., who a black belts. Accordingly, I have the sense to not opine in the face of far greater knowledge until such time as I have acquired a basic grounding in facts. There are others who have some greater knowledge and they do opine quite appropriately. Policy- I think you got into trouble largely for vitriolically responding to a number of posts with a great deal of attitude and a significant shortage of facts. I litigate for a living and I truly enjoy opponents such as yourself. [sarcasm alert for the irony impaired.] It makes the day last just that much longer and the stress level increase ever so much more.
post #62 of 161
Quote:
"Second, as someone else pointed out, Naturlaut is himself Asian, so your ranting about racism is entirely misplaced." Someone that's Asian can be racist against Asians, just like Blacks can be racist against Blacks, and Whites can be racist against Whites. Just because you are a race doesn't mean you can't make racist statements about another race. If a Black people says that Blacks are lazy, is he making a racist statement? YES. Just because someone is the same race as the race they are DENIGRATING doesn't make them immune from prosecution. Let's see which weak assed motherf***** FACTS you provide us with: "Asian tailors are primarily associated with low-cost, high-volume operations that sell through tours of American and European cities as well as to tourists visiting their countries." OPINION. "The typical Asian custom suit is produced based on one set of measurements that takes 5 or 10 minutes." OPINION. " Savile Row and Italian custom tailors, on the other hand, have a long tradition of quality workmanship and although they also do tours of American cities, they also have clients from around the world who visit them to have suits made." OPINION. "Moreover, most of them require multiple measurement and fitting sessions of an hour or more. I'm certainly not aware of any Asian tailors who have the same heritage and reputation as A&S, Huntsman, Battistoni, etc., etc., and you certainly don't see any Savile Row or Italian tailors charging $400 for a "custom" suit." First OPINION, second FALSEHOOD. You can get custom suits in Italy for well under $400 US dollars. Why don't you try taking a trip there? "You of all people should know the differences because of that awful piece of crap Ravis suit you posted on Ask Andy.  While that may be primarily your fault for providing poor measurements and not specifying precisely what you wanted, it's difficult to imagine any Savile Row or Italian firm providing you with a similar garment." OPINION. Wow, your facts were really decimating to my argument. I'm not sure what kind of source citations they require at Burger King or wherever else you're employed, but at a job which requires real facts and sources, you sir would have been SERVED.
With regard to Naturlaut, I was merely pointing out that it's likely his opinion was based on his vast knowledge and observation of tailored clothing rather than uninformed racial prejudices.  Also, I believe Naturlaut moved from the US to Hong Kong a while back, an interesting choice for someone who supposedly hates Asians. As for the rest of your inane post, it appears you no know more about the difference between fact and opinion than you do about tailored clothing.  Also, I have been to Italy many times, but have not found any tailors offering fully bespoke suits for less than $400.  If you have any names to recommend, I would be happy to check them out on my next visit.  Then again, I probably shouldn't be soliciting recommendations from someone who thinks this is a "perfect" fit and who complains that the tailor didn't canvas the back of his jacket.
post #63 of 161
Bryce, don't you know that in this crazy, morally relativist world, there is no difference between fact and opinion?
post #64 of 161
Not to be too much of a lawyer pain in the ass (redundancy), but they are technically neither facts nor opinions until we know the basis of the assertion by the poster. If it is based on his experience, study, and acquisition of information - likely fact. If the poster was just spouting - likely opinion. However, since the statements were qualified by words such as "most" and were posted by someone with reasonable credibility, I would be inclined to classify most of the statements as "fact."
post #65 of 161
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Policy, Since you are the academic and love definitions I would suggest you look up 'revisionist history'. I was happy to let that thread on Andy's drop but for those who missed it, I believe that it was you, sir, who displayed an unforgivable cruelty and lack of sensitivity when you made your little remark about the Special Olympics. So let's review: You accused those who responded to your thread of bigotry because they suggested that you could not expect Savile Row bespoke quality when spending $399 for a made to measure suit in Thailand. You took great offense to the suggestion that perhaps your own measurements were fallible.  This after you announced that the back of your jacket lacked a canvas interlining and displayed a complete lack of understanding of even the basics of fabrics when you failed to differentiate between micronage and weight.  You then proudly announced the 17 changes you demanded be made to your 'fully bespoke suit', displaying once again a complete lack of understanding regarding the term bespoke. Some people were tough on you, others helpful.  I had no interest in pointing out that your ignorance was only exceeded by the volume and arrogance with which you proclaimed your false assumptions. Some of the 'effeminate' posters you accused of being racist against those with darker than pale English skin were in fact several shades beyond George Hamilton on the pigmentation chart and, in fact, Asian in ancestry. So let's be clear:  You opine loudly about a subject in which the sum total of your knowledge creates a void that makes a black hole seem crowded by comparison.  Then when it is pointed out to you, politely by some, not so politely by others you engage in the sophomoric sideshow trick of screaming racism and questioning the relative masculinity of those to whom you are shrieking.  That's an ad hominem attack.  It's a debate trick to use when you are utterly devoid of a substantive response.  It goes like this: Substantive Question:  Sir, I present these 12 facts that counter the opinion you just expressed. Ad hominem response:  Yeah, but you are a racist fag and a retard One has to listen closely to discern the slight difference in weight between those two methods of persuasion but the difference is important. I was willing to walk away from that whole argument in disgust without giving you a public over the head wedgie but you made a crucial mistake:  You went and displayed a bigotry of your own with a comment that was so far beyond the limits of common decency as to make the Klan look compassionate.  You proclaimed that winning an argument with the folks on the board was like winning in the special olympics - even if you were to win you would still be retarded. Having spent several years working with disabled children, having coached and mentored with the Special Olympics and having at least an ounce of decency within me I concluded that you are not just an arrogant bigot - you are also unimaginably cruel and vicious. So you can opine at will regarding your fully bespoke Super 100 weight, rear-canvassed suit about which you know very little but for you to self righteously point around the room while screaming xenophobia and racism is laughable.   Perhaps you should have remained silent and allowed others to think you a fool rather than opening your yap and removing all remaining doubt. My apologies to the rest of the forum for this off topic rant.  I make it a practice to bite my lip and avoid the pissing contest threads but well, Policy's cute little comment about children with mental disabilities put me over the edge.   I will behave now J, no need to click the 'ban' button EDITED TO NOTE:  I'm not opining on the comments about Asian tailoring on THIS thread, just Policy's assertion that the beating he took on another thread was due to racism and not due to his own ignorance and arrogance.
"I was happy to let that thread on Andy's drop but for those who missed it, I believe that it was you, sir, who displayed an unforgivable cruelty and lack of sensitivity when you made your little remark about the Special Olympics." What I posted was a verifiable fact. "You accused those who responded to your thread of bigotry because they suggested that you could not expect Savile Row bespoke quality when spending $399 for a made to measure suit in Thailand." That's a Straw Man argument? Don't know what that is? Look it up. I stated that it IS possible to get comparable quality to Saville Row at Asia. I never mentioned a price point. OBVIOUSLY the majority opinion is that you cannot get the same quality at ANY price point, which is inherantly RACIST. "You took great offense to the suggestion that perhaps your own measurements were fallible. This after you announced that the back of your jacket lacked a canvas interlining and displayed a complete lack of understanding of even the basics of fabrics when you failed to differentiate between micronage and weight." Another logical fallacy. You're stating that because I'm not an expert at suit construction that I'm unable to wield a tape measurer. Completely unrelated. Go ahead and attack me, but in the real world (IE the world outside of here and Ask Andy) your ability to roll on supple fabrics with your boyfriend is far less impressive than you believe it to be. "You then proudly announced the 17 changes you demanded be made to your 'fully bespoke suit', displaying once again a complete lack of understanding regarding the term bespoke." The definition of bespoke is Custom Made, period. Which is what my suit will be. There is no other definition. Language is a science unlike fashion - grab a dictionary if you're still confused what bespoke means. Those 17 changes were dictated to me by Ravi, not vice versa. Looks like you yourself are the one with lack of understanding, not surprising looking at where you've ended up in the vocational scheme of things. "Some people were tough on you, others helpful. I had no interest in pointing out that your ignorance was only exceeded by the volume and arrogance with which you proclaimed your false assumptions." Except that your "assistance" was completely speculative, based on nothing else but your own opinion, which seeing as your ties are carried by no major retailors, and you appear in no publications - is not valued by this consumer. "Some of the 'effeminate' posters you accused of being racist against those with darker than pale English skin were in fact several shades beyond George Hamilton on the pigmentation chart and, in fact, Asian in ancestry." See my post and others where it's stated that it does not MATTER what race someone is. If Im Black and someone espouses that Blacks are stupid because they are Black, someone is going to have a problem - I don't care what race they are. "So let's be clear: You opine loudly about a subject in which the sum total of your knowledge creates a void that makes a black hole seem crowded by comparison. Then when it is pointed out to you, politely by some, not so politely by others you engage in the sophomoric sideshow trick of screaming racism and questioning the relative masculinity of those to whom you are shrieking. " Funny how I scream racism, and yet it appears both here and on AskAndy. Where there's smoke there's fire. "That's an ad hominem attack." Actually that's not an ad hominem, what you meant to say was that it's a Red Herring, except it wasn't. Listen I'm sure they didn't teach logic in whatever trade high school you dropped out of (See, now THAT'S an Ad Hominem attack, which means against the person in case your latin is rusty - same trade school issues) but you should really pick up logic for dummies, assuming you have time to read after filling what I'm sure is a tireless amount of internet only clothing orders. "Policy's cute little comment about children with mental disabilities put me over the edge." Put you over the edge a month later?
post #66 of 161
Quote:
I would have to take issue with Bryce 330's statement to the effect that the typical Asian custom suit is based one set of measurements that takes 5 to 10 minutes. When I was measured for my first Chan suit last fall, Patrick Chu spent a good deal of time (probably at least a half-hour) measuring me and the suit I was wearing and photographing me from several angles. I can recall at least one post on this forum from a gentleman who found Hemrajani to be a good deal more meticulous and thorough than Patrick. Are the products of Chan and Hemrajani "typical Asian custom suits"? Maybe, maybe not.
OK, fair enough.  I was making an estimate based on my sole experience with an Asian tailor (Raja, a suit I was very happy with BTW).  Perhaps Chan and Hemrajani take more detailed measurements.  However, it's still no substitute for the intensive, multiple-fitting process of the top Savile Row tailors.   I don't want to sound like I'm bashing Asian tailors in this thread, because I'm not - I've used Raja, I'm planning to try Chan on their next visit to the US, and it's unlikely I'll ever shell out $5000 for a true Savile Row suit.  However, to imply that the experiences or the products are comparable is absurd - there's a reason (many reasons in fact) for the vast price differential.
post #67 of 161
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One fellow did post a photo of a suit from Chan on which the sleeves were definitely too long. I believe (if it was the same guy) that they were going to correct this and give him a free shirt for his troubles on this matter, so evidently they do stand behind their products.
I am the fellow of note. And, yes, Patrick was kind enough to offer a free shirt in exchange for my having to make the trek to Austin (from Galveston) for alterations. Last week, the altered jacket arrived. The sleeves are absolutely perfect and the increased waist suppression I wanted was handled deftly. My only concern is that the jacket is on the longish side, reaching to the end of my thumbs, but I have a long torso, so covering the rear depends on a jacket of this length. Still, I'm pleased to the point of ordering another suit. With those who commend Chan for what they do, I concur. My experience is that Chan stands behind its work. With regard to the present situation, I can't imagine Patrick being anything less than accommodating.
post #68 of 161
May I suggest we do the following: 1. Draw no conclusions about WW Chan until we see how they resolve this problem. 2. Draw no conclusions about Naturlaut's motives until he responds to explain what may be no more than an incomplete or unclear thought in the original post. 3. Calm the hell down, in general.
post #69 of 161
Policy, are you for real? You confirm that studies that have shown that people with low intelligence are the least likely to realize that they know absolutely nothing.
post #70 of 161
Quote:
"You took great offense to the suggestion that perhaps your own measurements were fallible. This after you announced that the back of your jacket lacked a canvas interlining and displayed a complete lack of understanding of even the basics of fabrics when you failed to differentiate between micronage and weight." Another logical fallacy. You're stating that because I'm not an expert at suit construction that I'm unable to wield a tape measurer. Completely unrelated. Go ahead and attack me, but in the real world (IE the world outside of here and Ask Andy) your ability to roll on supple fabrics with your boyfriend is far less impressive than you believe it to be.
Policy- Suggesting that Chuck is gay and then suggesting that his purported ability to roll around on "supple fabrics" with his "boyfriend" does not make him an expert is completely inappropriate gay bashing. I am sorry it upsets you, but his post focused on your ignorance of suit construction. Chuck is extremely well-versed in suit construction, fabrics, and fit. He just happens to orient his on-line retail business toward ties and shirts.
post #71 of 161
Quote:
I was happy to let that thread on Andy's drop but for those who missed it, I believe that it was you, sir, who displayed an unforgivable cruelty and lack of sensitivity when you made your little remark about the Special Olympics.
I just read the thread on Ask Andy in which your comments, Policy, about the special olympics were edited out by Malinda along with a threat of banning from Ask Andy. Chuck Franke made no such comments. You apparently have no respect for any of the more senior members of this forum or for the plight of disabled children. As I said before, you should not post on this forum.
post #72 of 161
Given how Kalra and Styleman (if the two were not identical) got the axe, I'm a bit amazed that Policy has endured in these fora as long as he has.
post #73 of 161
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Except that your "assistance" was completely speculative, based on nothing else but your own opinion, which seeing as your ties are carried by no major retailors, and you appear in no publications - is not valued by this consumer.
This is an excellent point. I'm going to ignore all of the raves on this forum and not buy any Carlo Franco ties until I see them in GQ or on the racks at Men's Wearhouse. Only then will I feel comfortable that they are quality products.
post #74 of 161
Completely irrelevant at this point, but Naturlaut's comment is not without merit and for that reason, sort of sad. I won't go into detail here, but to say that traditional Chinese culture values some work (academics, for example) above others. This probably has Confucian roots, which esteem some types of work above others (academics were at the top of the prestige chain, merchants at the very bottom). The natural result is that those engaged in the less esteemed work take less pride in that work. This attitude is seen more or less in most hierarchial cultures (although what work is considered noble and what is considered menial varies), but in Chinese cultures is especially pronounced. On a related note, unfortunately, instead of following the rather humane teachings of the late Pope's encyclical that stated, essentially, that there is dignity in *all* work, ernest's contentions notwithstanding, western societies (and American society in particular) going in exactly the opposite direction, but with money being the most important factor. A lawyer who bills $400 an hour is respected, while the fact that someone is trying to make do on 25K a year is despised. BTW, I am Chinese by descent, second generation.
post #75 of 161
Quote:
Calm the hell down, in general.
The voice of reason.
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