The mafoofan and Thom Browne philosophies are not too unlike.

Originally Posted by bluemagic

Click to expand...

Why not say that the free market is the quintessentially modernist way of driving progress?

Because that would be not saying anything.

Originally Posted by dopey

Click to expand...

You are correct, but I am disappointed that you assumeed the most limiting and hyperbolic version of what I wrote is what I meant.

Thom Browne is not just perfecting and honing his ideas, or even improving them. If he were, you would be correct and I would agree that Thom Browne is some sort of high concept, principled design intelligence.

My point is that his designs are not about the continual and evolving expression of an idea - they are about 1. Thom Browne, Thom Browne the clothes seller and Thom Browne the look and 2. coming up with new stuff to sell each season.

Aside from the seasonnal concept clothes (say his tennis crap) what he's selling is essentially the same every season (various grey 2 1/2 suits, white OCBD, wool ties, clunker shoes, boxy overcoats and macs). I'm not sure I would disagree that the excentric TB is putting himself forward and an important selling point but he's not the be all, end all of TB the brand.

TB isn't very high concept and is not engaging in a reflection on what clothing or designing clothes means. He's definitely not Margiela. He has a simple core concept and some surrounding myths and goes from ther every season to develop a related theme. I wouldn't disagree that the need to produce a new presentation every season is not ideally suited to what he does but hey, even Picasso went a little bit overboard with his ceramic production.

I liked that he finally directly engaged the fascism overtones inherent in his work through his last presentation but you probably don't care.

Originally Posted by dopey

Click to expand...

Because that would be not saying anything.

Especially considering the loss of grand narratives and absolute truths associated with postmodern times coupled with a sampling of the past and ever-changing focus of attention has proven to be a fertile ground for free marketers.

Should I vote yet?


- B

Who's going to incorporate this into their thesis project? When are we going to mention Napoli and sprezzatura?

First in with spalla camicia before the lock.


- B

Originally Posted by Fuuma

Click to expand...

Aside from the seasonnal concept clothes (say his tennis crap) what he's selling is essentially the same every season (various grey 2 1/2 suits, white OCBD, wool ties, clunker shoes, boxy overcoats and macs). I'm not sure I would disagree that the excentric TB is putting himself forward and an important selling point but he's not the be all, end all of TB the brand. TB isn't very high concept and is not engaging in a reflection on what clothing or designing clothes means. He's definitely not Margiela. He has a simple core concept and some surrounding myths and goes from ther every season to develop a related theme. I wouldn't disagree that the need to produce a new presentation every season is not ideally suited to what he does but hey, even Picasso went a little bit overboard with his ceramic production.
This is annoyingly cogent. But then you stuck this in . . .

Originally Posted by Fuuma

Click to expand...

I liked that he finally directly engaged the fascism overtones inherent in his work through his last presentation but you probably don't care.
I would like to think that you threw out some gibberish only so that the fashion guys will still think you're cool.

Originally Posted by dopey

Click to expand...

This is annoyingly cogent.

But then you stuck this in . . .



I would like to think that this is only there so that the fashion people have some gibberish they can point to and explain why you are cool.


Well his references to the 50s, uniformity, the disturbing Goicoela video, a sorta romanticism linked to death, homoerotic undertones and the obsessive neatness are not direct signifiers of fascism but sorta evoke it due to posterior cultural associations (in the 50s no one would say this crap was fascistic and prior to that fascists themselves would have kicked you in the nuts for saying so). So the idea was out there but not fully realized and he did so by doing a presentation in a building that used to be a fascist Italian headquarter.

Originally Posted by Fuuma

Click to expand...

Well his references to the 50s, uniformity, the disturbing Goicoela video, a sorta romanticism linked to death, homoerotic undertones and the obsessive neatness are not direct signifiers of fascism but sorta evoke it due to posterior cultural associations (in the 50s no one would say this crap was fascistic and prior to that fascists themselves would have kicked you in the nuts for saying so). So the idea was out there but not fully realized and he did so by doing a presentation in a building that used to be a fascist Italian headquarter.

I didn't need the liner notes.

The gibberish is in writing that "he is engaging the fascist overtones inherent in his work" instead of simply saying that he picked a location that would make uniform fetishists happy.

Originally Posted by dopey

Click to expand...

Because that would be not saying anything.

I just don't think there's a contradiction between being modernist and being market-oriented.

Originally Posted by bluemagic

Click to expand...

I just don't think there's a contradiction between being modernist and being market-oriented.

We've been over that: not necessarily. Here, yes.

What would your hypothetical RTW line look like, mafoo?

Originally Posted by dopey

Click to expand...

I didn't need the liner notes.

The gibberish is in writing that "he is engaging the fascist overtones inherent in his work" instead of simply saying that he picked a location that would make uniform fetishists happy.

That's because I think he did what I said he did not what you said he did. I don't credit TB with a lot of self-reflection regarding TB (the brand) and that's not his thing anyway so for me this was a surprise.

Originally Posted by Fuuma

Click to expand...

That's because I think he did what I said he did not what you said he did. I don't credit TB with a lot of self-reflection regarding TB (the brand) and that's not his thing anyway so for me this was a surprise.

Maybe the concept behind the presentation that you found more thought provoking wasn't his.

- B

Originally Posted by Fuuma

Click to expand...

Well his references to the 50s, uniformity, the disturbing Goicoela video, a sorta romanticism linked to death, homoerotic undertones and the obsessive neatness are not direct signifiers of fascism but sorta evoke it due to posterior cultural associations (in the 50s no one would say this crap was fascistic and prior to that fascists themselves would have kicked you in the nuts for saying so). So the idea was out there but not fully realized and he did so by doing a presentation in a building that used to be a fascist Italian headquarter.

Our disconnect stems from your tendency to define all things in terms of reference to other things, so that all things are patchwork reflections of an imagined past. I understand this is a postmodern way of thinking, and postmodernists surmise that all people really think this way, whether they know it or not. But it is far from a conclusive argument.

The fact that something is referential says nothing about whether it has any 'good' or 'true' value itself. Even if the referenced things are bad, false, or poorly remembered, the current thing that is referencing them may still present an undiscovered absolute truth of some sort. I find that postmodern thinkers consistently make the error of assuming that because they have disproved a particular absolute truth, they have disproved the possibility of any absolute truth.

So, the reason Thom Brown gets so much flack on this forum is not necessarily because we just don't see the light, that all things, including our own clothing choices, are merely referential. It might just be that some of us expect more of a rational justification for the things he's doing.