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post #106 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post
rach, are you saying most gay men have a "moment" where they stop hiding from themselves? I sort of assumed most people (not all) had a pretty hardwired imprint by the age of sexual awakening, what did and did not attract them.
No, no, I don't mean a moment of sexual epiphany, I mostly mean probably a moment when you just can't keep lying to yourself anymore. I, personally, have never once been attracted to a woman. From the first moment I knew what sex meant. BUT, I didn't "know" exactly what that meant or "come out" until years later. It wasn't a "desirable" or possible form of exploration for me like it was for straight kids. Where I grew up, being "gay" wasn't even a part of the conceptual make up of reality, except as a deviant act somewhere on the evil meter well past armed robbery, but just short of wanton murder. When I was younger, I told myself, "I'm a good kid, make good grades... I'm not criminal, so I'm not 'gay.'" AND YET, I didn't like girls, never had a girlfriend, and looked with more than passing disinterest at those National Geographic magazines with those naked Amazonian tribes and African tribes with gigantic cocked warriors. I'm saying that those years of confusion of having "no place" or no desirable avenue of self-exploration/self-knowing is the problem; a young kid doesn't have to "struggle" with being straight. It's just waht it is. AND, right now, after he's come out, it's hardly all unicorns and rainbows when he finds himself up against "the community." Again, this doesn't hold up across the board; mostly I'm just speaking from my own and a lot of other experiences of gheyz I know.
post #107 of 194
Rach,

I see what you're saying. Society is indeed set up with a number of built in assumptions, and one of those is that people are straight by default. I have nothing to add to that, in terms of value judgment, hope for change, etc. (not sure it really should change, as it does indeed seem to be the default setting for the vast majority of folks), but am sorry to think of the confusion and discomfort that caused you, and no doubt many of teh ghey. I think the best we can hope for is a removal of implicit judgment on sexual orientation, but I really don't see the default mode assumptions being removed.

Sorry, probably didn't say that well. Long week, intense morning, and just stomping out fires on the phone until it's time for Happy Hour
post #108 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by rach2jlc View Post
I can't articulate it clearly here and so I'm afraid it will come out muddled... but here goes:

I'm just saying that "being gay" right now has nothing about being a legitimate or desirable "way of life." It's about sex with men or wanting sex with men. "Being gay" marks you as a certain way or being a certain "type" of person.

"Being straight," though, IS a way of life that doesn't have to identify itself, it doesn't have to just "be" about sex or whatever else. It just "is" what it is and, with the freedom it offers, becomes a desirABLE way of living.

What's desirable about being gay, AS A LIFESTYLE? The whole makeup isn't such that a young guy can BE honest with himself and say, "who am I? Do I like boys or girls?" and then proceed openly and freely to "know thyself."

I freely admit to never having thought much about culture, or really much at all in general, and I have zero experience in your shoes, but I don't follow how sexual preference leads to cultural identification in other areas of life. I don't preface my activities by thinking that "this is what I do because I dig women", nor do I avoid activities because they aren't part of the straight identification. Am I typical? Not quite sure on that one. Have I examined myself and my culture? Probably not very well.

Then again, stereotypes exist for a reason, and I think that some of them have been hammered into the stream of consciousness simply for being outliers - would I attend a straight pride rally? probably not, unless Mrs. T requested it.

I may have to think a bit more here.
post #109 of 194
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rach2jlc View Post
I can't articulate it clearly here and so I'm afraid it will come out muddled... but here goes:

I'm just saying that "being gay" right now has nothing about being a legitimate or desirable "way of life." It's about sex with men or wanting sex with men. "Being gay" marks you as a certain way or being a certain "type" of person.

"Being straight," though, IS a way of life that doesn't have to identify itself, it doesn't have to just "be" about sex or whatever else. It just "is" what it is and, with the freedom it offers, becomes a desirABLE way of living.

What's desirable about being gay, AS A LIFESTYLE? The whole makeup isn't such that a young guy can BE honest with himself and say, "who am I? Do I like boys or girls?" and then proceed openly and freely to "know thyself."

This is what I've been trying to explain for a while, but I'll add to it a bit.

Heterosexuality carries with it an assumption of normalcy that isn't broken without some other event occurring. But when people discover that someone is a homosexual (usually because they see them at a table together, kissing, holding hands, whatever) it instantly labels them as a 'gay' and the stereotypes and assumptions associated with it are assumed. The normalcy is instantly broken. But really, homosexuals as a whole are not much different from heterosexuals despite the difference in sexuality. Sexuality is the only real difference, but for some reason all the other negative baggage gets tossed in with it and they're sorted out of normalcy.

If you want to see what I mean first hand, talk to a gay person like they're a real person -- get to know them, inquire about their interests, see what you have in common, etc. and you'll see how much they absolutely respect you for it just like any other person would.
post #110 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post
Rach, I see what you're saying. Society is indeed set up with a number of built in assumptions, and one of those is that people are straight by default. I have nothing to add to that, in terms of value judgment, hope for change, etc. (not sure it really should change, as it does indeed seem to be the default setting for the vast majority of folks), but am sorry to think of the confusion and discomfort that caused you, and no doubt many of teh ghey. I think the best we can hope for is a removal of implicit judgment on sexual orientation, but I really don't see the default mode assumptions being removed. Sorry, probably didn't say that well. Long week, intense morning, and just stomping out fires on the phone until it's time for Happy Hour
Thanks, Pio, and I see what you mean. I don't think it is a problem with the "default mode," as you mention, but only that the "alternative mode" need not be set up at an automatic disadvantage. I don't think that the problem is that people are thought straight by default, but only that when you realize as a young kid that your desire isn't like what you see elsewhere, that you have NO PLACE or that you have to adopt a way that is wrong for you. Thus, as I said, it's a situation of making a gay way of life desirable for young people who are gay, rather than something they come to out of necessity, pain, etc. AND, when they do come out, that the lifestyle/culture/way of life that is there is a legitimate, healthy, and productive one that (also) is desirable.
post #111 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by rach2jlc View Post
No, no, I don't mean a moment of sexual epiphany, I mostly mean probably a moment when you just can't keep lying to yourself anymore.

(...)

I'm saying that those years of confusion of having "no place" or no desirable avenue of self-exploration/self-knowing is the problem; a young kid doesn't have to "struggle" with being straight. It's just waht it is. AND, right now, after he's come out, it's hardly all unicorns and rainbows when he finds himself up against "the community."

Again, this doesn't hold up across the board; mostly I'm just speaking from my own and a lot of other experiences of gheyz I know.

Okay, I see where you're coming from now.
post #112 of 194
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
I freely admit to never having thought much about culture, or really much at all in general, and I have zero experience in your shoes, but I don't follow how sexual preference leads to cultural identification in other areas of life. I don't preface my activities by thinking that "this is what I do because I dig women"...

I guess the issue here is that people assume the inverse with homosexuals: "this is what he does because he digs men".
post #113 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by rach2jlc View Post
Thanks, Pio, and I see what you mean. I don't think it is a problem with the "default mode," as you mention, but only that the "alternative mode" need not be set up at an automatic disadvantage. I don't think that the problem is that people are thought straight by default, but only that when you realize as a young kid that your desire isn't like what you see elsewhere, that you have NO PLACE or that you have to adopt a way that is wrong for you.

Thus, as I said, it's a situation of making a gay way of life desirable for young people who are gay, rather than something they come to out of necessity, pain, etc. AND, when they do come out, that the lifestyle/culture/way of life that is there is a legitimate, healthy, and productive one that (also) is desirable.

+1
post #114 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by why View Post
I guess the issue here is that people assume the inverse with homosexuals: "this is what he does because he digs men".

I think you're probably right there.
post #115 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by edmorel View Post
A lot of physcological mumbo jumbo going on here. No need to overanalyze this. Why, you like kack. Nothing wrong with that. Just don't kid yourself, dating women will lead to disappointment for you and them. You want to bang this guy, bang him. You are gay. Eason is gay. Accept it, enjoy your men and move on with your lives. That is why I have a lot of respect for guys like rach/gosurface/randallr, they know who they are and they lead their lives for them, not for others. If a man makes your peepee feel funny, follow it's lead. I think you posted a pic once and you and randallr would make a cute couple.



John, you talk too much.
post #116 of 194
I have furthered my research on gay faces.
post #117 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by LabelKing View Post
I have furthered my research on gay faces.

Any results you'd be willing to share with the class yet?
post #118 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post
Any results you'd be willing to share with the class yet?

Gays may have straight faces, but straights do not have gay faces.
post #119 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by LabelKing View Post
Gays may have straight faces, but straights do not have gay faces.

Crafty of them.
post #120 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by rach2jlc View Post
I'm just saying that "being gay" right now has nothing about being a legitimate or desirable "way of life." It's about sex with men or wanting sex with men. "Being gay" marks you as a certain way or being a certain "type" of person.
Rach, what makes a man more gay: enjoying and desiring sex with men, or falling in love and wanting to be with men? There is a joke in my social group, and far beyond it (perhaps limited to guys in my age group, in my area of the world, but probably not), about how if you get a BJ from a guy, you're not gay, or if you pitch, you're not gay. Personally I've felt that your sexual orientation has more to do with who you could fall in love with and be with, and feel jealousy about, but then maybe we shouldn't call it "sexual orientation."
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