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Rally under your flag- War is upon us! The Great Drape/No Drape Poll! - Page 12

post #166 of 554
http://www.desmerrionbespoketailor.c...blog/20080816/

Stand by your beds, I am going to make no bones about it, the Anderson and Sheppard drape cut is not my bag of tea, I have seen it on several of my clients and I don't like it, it is too excessively loose and badly fitted to my eye. I make no apology to the above as my comment is based on what I have seen with my own eyes, not hearsay, or someone else's opinion, it is my own. The reason I have seen the cut on my client is because they did not like it either which is why they then came to me! I have personally held a coat around the back section whilst my client was wearing it and I had in excess of EIGHT INCHES of surplus cloth pinched in my hands, how is that a good fitting coat or even be claimed to be anywhere near it should be??

The problem I see is the people who love the drape cut and the drape look are ramming it down everyone's throats on the various clothing forums. Now, there are some knowledgeable people out there singing the praises of this and that, but the bottom line is no matter what, they do not have the expertise of a tailor or a cutter, if they are so expert maybe they should come and do our job for us?

Some argue you must have drape, and while this thought can be correct and a desirable way to go, this is not true for all. A coat can be cut without drape or excess fabric and still the garment will be supremely comfortable to the wearer.
post #167 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewRogers View Post
The difference is astounding. In the Solito, he appears to have put on 10 lb. of muscle in the shoulders and chest, while having simultaneously slimmed down in the midsection, a result usually only obtainable with steroids. Even the arms look beefier, though that is clearly an illusion. In comparison, the Steed suit looks strikingly old-mannish (not necessarily in its styling, but in the way it presents the wearer). The shoulder line is narrower and weaker and all definition in the chest has been lost. The appearance of sagging, excess fabric underneath the armpits is particularly glaring by contrast. Moreover, because its waist suppression doesn't follow the natural contours of the body, the bottom of the jacket bulges outward, making the hips look fatter. Now, comfort is an entirely different matter, but if we accept that much of the point of sartorial aesthetics is to accentuate and flatter the physique, there's no contest between the two.
post #168 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by holymadness View Post
The difference is astounding. In the Solito, he appears to have put on 10 lb. of muscle in the shoulders and chest, while having simultaneously slimmed down in the midsection, a result usually only obtainable with steroids. Even the arms look beefier, though that is clearly an illusion.

The mere sight of it makes me feel physically threatened.
post #169 of 554
Drape seems to be taken in this context to be cutting and tailoring such that manipulation of darts and the canvas bias to afford a little slack in some areas. Which can be true, but I think it's more of an aesthetic effect than a technical method of manufacture.

Consider dressmaking, where elegant drape is created by (among other things):

Cutting the fabric on the bias
Choosing the correct weight fabric
Choosing a style of cut that allows the fabric to drape elegantly over the figure

To exemplify this, here we have Darcy Bussell (prima ballerina) and Katherine Jenkins (mezzo soprano) standing side-by-side, in the same style garment.



Darcy's long, slender figure needs a long, slender cut. Katherine's wider hips are better complimented by a easiness in the cut that allows the fabric to hang from the curves. (I won't deal with different curve shapes here, but I do believe that elliptical, parabolic, and hyperbolic curves can be used to great effect in button stance, lapel width and belly)

So thus I advocate "drape" in tailoring to be employed to complement the figure, not as a style to be forced upon all physiques. I believe that Il Vecchio offers one of the finest examples of dressing to one's figure with this offering:



Firstly, double breasted suit on a slender figure. Check. Then, trousers and sleeves proportionate to the muscularity of the limbs. Then, button stance - because the upper button position generally works better if you have a broader chest than your stomach and so the lapel can tuck in under the line of the ribcage. He doesn't have a broad or muscular chest, so the lower button just creates that "easiness" that befits someone whose chest and shoulders aren't a main feature of their figure. On this vein, not too much waist suppression is used either. Just enough. Choose the correct canvassing and weight fabric to allow the cloth to fall as described, et voilà, sartorial magic.

Correct canvassing plays an important part in allowing the jacket to fall over the body in harmony with the wearer's body shape. This is why people are earnestly maintaining that it is possible for a structured jacket to be comfortable - it's that the canvassing complements their body.

It's pretty hard to pull all these considerations together - especially if you live in a part of the world where normal-weight cloths may only be worn three seasons in a year - like me). But once you do, you can get just a few suits cut to these proportions, and look great all the time.

If you can, imagine Il Vecchio above with a tighter fit around the waist area. Not as good, right? Or put an A&S cut on him, and he'll look like he borrowed someone else's jacket. To me, that is, in essence, drape - cloth hanging over you in a way that complements your particular figure.

Daniel Craig is a good example of not using enough drape. Combined with the short skirt, this jacket seems to cling around him, rather than move with him.



Back in Brioni, and way more comfortable-looking. All volumes are bigger, which suits him better, given that he does not have a tall, slender figure, but rather a shorter, squatter, more muscular one.

post #170 of 554

..


Edited by merkur - 7/28/11 at 2:10am
post #171 of 554
Forward, men, in your sleek and masculine fitted coats!

post #172 of 554
I have noted the existence of this thread.
post #173 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by holymadness View Post
The difference is astounding. In the Solito, he appears to have put on 10 lb. of muscle in the shoulders and chest, while having simultaneously slimmed down in the midsection, a result usually only obtainable with steroids. Even the arms look beefier, though that is clearly an illusion.

In comparison, the Steed suit looks strikingly old-mannish (not necessarily in its styling, but in the way it presents the wearer). The shoulder line is narrower and weaker and all definition in the chest has been lost. The appearance of sagging, excess fabric underneath the armpits is particularly glaring by contrast. Moreover, because its waist suppression doesn't follow the natural contours of the body, the bottom of the jacket bulges outward, making the hips look fatter.

Now, comfort is an entirely different matter, but if we accept that much of the point of sartorial aesthetics is to accentuate and flatter the physique, there's no contest between the two.

This really made me laugh this morning. Thank you.


- B
post #174 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by j View Post
I have noted the existence of this thread.




- B
post #175 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sator View Post
http://www.desmerrionbespoketailor.c...blog/20080816/

Stand by your beds, I am going to make no bones about it, the Anderson and Sheppard drape cut is not my bag of tea, I have seen it on several of my clients and I don't like it, it is too excessively loose and badly fitted to my eye. I make no apology to the above as my comment is based on what I have seen with my own eyes, not hearsay, or someone else's opinion, it is my own. The reason I have seen the cut on my client is because they did not like it either which is why they then came to me! I have personally held a coat around the back section whilst my client was wearing it and I had in excess of EIGHT INCHES of surplus cloth pinched in my hands, how is that a good fitting coat or even be claimed to be anywhere near it should be??

The problem I see is the people who love the drape cut and the drape look are ramming it down everyone's throats on the various clothing forums. Now, there are some knowledgeable people out there singing the praises of this and that, but the bottom line is no matter what, they do not have the expertise of a tailor or a cutter, if they are so expert maybe they should come and do our job for us?

Some argue you must have drape, and while this thought can be correct and a desirable way to go, this is not true for all. A coat can be cut without drape or excess fabric and still the garment will be supremely comfortable to the wearer.

Sator, you rascal.

Just so that it does not get lost, even Mr. Merrion, despite his well-articulated reservations, can like...no, LOVE...a good draped cut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the tailor
Quote:
Originally Posted by voxsartoria
Variations and examples of draped coats and/or sacks that this American wears (and I assure you, even a gentleman as burly as Mr. Merrion would fail to pull eight inches of excess out of any). The photographs show examples of some of the attributes discussed in this thread.

Soft-tailored, draped jacket with no front darts or sidebodies, but underarm darts (DeBoise):



[deleted]

Soft-tailored, draped suit with both front and underarm darts, but no sidebodies (DeBoise):



[deleted]


Best,
Bill

I LOVE the first DeBoise coat and checked suit.

Great examples of a good drape cut, but in the thread '3 bespoke suits by different tailors' suit no 1 is a very bad example of the drape cut which makes my opinion easier to understand.
_________________
Des Merrion
www.desmerrionbespoketailor.com



I think that even among tailors with strong feelings about particular ways of putting together a jacket, there is always an appreciation for something well done even if that is not that tailor's personal style.

I suggest that there is more pleasure in being open minded. Narrowness and invalidation of alternative aesthetics does only one thing: it reduces the range of pleasures that you can enjoy during all too brief mortality.


- B
post #176 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by yfyf View Post
The mere sight of it makes me feel physically threatened.

Don't touch my wife's ass...unless you're a hot girl.


- B
post #177 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by rs232 View Post
Drape seems to be taken in this context to be cutting and tailoring such that manipulation of darts and the canvas bias to afford a little slack in some areas. Which can be true, but I think it's more of an aesthetic effect than a technical method of manufacture.

Consider dressmaking, where elegant drape is created by (among other things):

Cutting the fabric on the bias
Choosing the correct weight fabric
Choosing a style of cut that allows the fabric to drape elegantly over the figure

To exemplify this, here we have Darcy Bussell (prima ballerina) and Katherine Jenkins (mezzo soprano) standing side-by-side, in the same style garment.



Darcy's long, slender figure needs a long, slender cut. Katherine's wider hips are better complimented by a easiness in the cut that allows the fabric to hang from the curves. (I won't deal with different curve shapes here, but I do believe that elliptical, parabolic, and hyperbolic curves can be used to great effect in button stance, lapel width and belly)

So thus I advocate "drape" in tailoring to be employed to complement the figure, not as a style to be forced upon all physiques. I believe that Il Vecchio offers one of the finest examples of dressing to one's figure with this offering:



Firstly, double breasted suit on a slender figure. Check. Then, trousers and sleeves proportionate to the muscularity of the limbs. Then, button stance - because the upper button position generally works better if you have a broader chest than your stomach and so the lapel can tuck in under the line of the ribcage. He doesn't have a broad or muscular chest, so the lower button just creates that "easiness" that befits someone whose chest and shoulders aren't a main feature of their figure. On this vein, not too much waist suppression is used either. Just enough. Choose the correct canvassing and weight fabric to allow the cloth to fall as described, et voilà, sartorial magic.

Correct canvassing plays an important part in allowing the jacket to fall over the body in harmony with the wearer's body shape. This is why people are earnestly maintaining that it is possible for a structured jacket to be comfortable - it's that the canvassing complements their body.

It's pretty hard to pull all these considerations together - especially if you live in a part of the world where normal-weight cloths may only be worn three seasons in a year - like me). But once you do, you can get just a few suits cut to these proportions, and look great all the time.

If you can, imagine Il Vecchio above with a tighter fit around the waist area. Not as good, right? Or put an A&S cut on him, and he'll look like he borrowed someone else's jacket. To me, that is, in essence, drape - cloth hanging over you in a way that complements your particular figure.

Daniel Craig is a good example of not using enough drape. Combined with the short skirt, this jacket seems to cling around him, rather than move with him.



Back in Brioni, and way more comfortable-looking. All volumes are bigger, which suits him better, given that he does not have a tall, slender figure, but rather a shorter, squatter, more muscular one.



That grey suit ain't no drape, y'all, no matter how you describe it. I think it's just bigger. Also, I think the photograph could be a bit off. I'd say Mr Craig looks much smarter in the darker suit. The nice lady helps, too Her chest isn't very clean
post #178 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by rs232 View Post
To exemplify this, here we have Darcy Bussell (prima ballerina) and Katherine Jenkins (mezzo soprano) standing side-by-side, in the same style garment.




Here's Darcy with some dude in a draped dinner jacket:




- B
post #179 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by voxsartoria View Post

I suggest that there is more pleasure in being open minded. Narrowness and invalidation of alternative aesthetics does only one thing: it reduces the range of pleasures that you can enjoy during all too brief mortality.


- B

Quote:
Originally Posted by voxsartoria View Post
Don't touch my wife's ass...unless you're a hot girl.


- B

Isn't that being a little narrow?
post #180 of 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefferyd View Post
Isn't that being a little narrow?

The hot girl can be blonde, brunette or redhead.

- B
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