SF - Broosk brothers 7-fold ties

**banksmiranda** · July 1st, 2004, 01:54 PM

I decided to pay a visit to Brooks Brothers today. I found (on my own) their small Golden Fleece line of 7-fold ties, surprise surprise, with their small Golden Fleece line of dress shirts. The Golden Fleece shirts and ties are made in the USA. The silk of these particular ties was woven in England. The Golden Fleece ties were pretty nice - self-tipped, but they cost $150. The Golden Fleece shirts cost $175.

**FIHTies** · July 1st, 2004, 02:02 PM

Quote:

I decided to pay a visit to Brooks Brothers today. I found (on my own) their small Golden Fleece line of 7-fold ties, surprise surprise, with their small Golden Fleece line of dress shirts. The Golden Fleece shirts and ties are made in the USA. The silk of these particular ties was woven in England. The Golden Fleece ties were pretty nice - self-tipped, but they cost $150. The Golden Fleece shirts cost $175.

The Seven fold ties were Self tipped?

**banksmiranda** · July 1st, 2004, 02:03 PM

They were self-tipped.

**FIHTies** · July 1st, 2004, 02:07 PM

Quote:

They were self-tipped.

Contradictory statement

If they were seven folds, they were not self tipped. If they were self tipped, they were more accurately four folds which have a lining as well.

I posted about this some time ago.

Banks: Did they have a lining? If not what would the purpose of the self tipping be?

JJF

**faustian bargain** · July 1st, 2004, 02:09 PM

starting to sound like 'golden fleeced' line...

(sorry couldn't resist.)

**banksmiranda** · July 1st, 2004, 02:21 PM

There are lined, self-tipped 7-fold ties, an example of which is Carlo Franco's Como line of 7-fold ties. The Carlo Franco Campagna 7-fold tie is unlined and untipped. The Golden Fleece ties did have a lining. Trust me on this. The BB four-fold ties are obviously lined, but are never self-tipped.

**shoreman80** · July 1st, 2004, 02:29 PM

Brooks Bros. Online has a selection of Golden Fleece shirts on sale, which I figure is not common. I think they're 80-100 USD. Sizing is limited, but if I hadn't been so irresponsible lately

I might pick one up just to try...

Sorry to hijack the thread, I know nothing about the ties... (though I'm wearing a normal BB tie right now).

**FIHTies** · July 1st, 2004, 02:33 PM

Quote:

There are lined, self-tipped 7-fold ties, an example of which is Carlo Franco's Como line of 7-fold ties. The Carlo Franco Campagna 7-fold tie is unlined and untipped. The Golden Fleece ties did have a lining. Trust me on this. The BB four-fold ties are obviously lined, but are never self-tipped.

Banks:

I think that CF's como series are a good example of what we are talking about. In fact if you look at the site CF you see the difference between the two groups of ties.

His Como Series are a self tipped four fold as is evident from the pictures on his site. His Campagna Series are authentic Seven Folds being all of one piece of silk and commanding a premium to the Como series which utilizes less silk.

This distinction in what makes a four fold vs an Authentic seven fold was told to me by an Italian Tiemaker.

That being said, I could be wrong anyway.

and after my Ernest fiasco of today I am not arguing with ANYBODY.

I am posting my original post on the different ties just for review.

Quote:

Seven Folds: The traditional and original ties were the seven folds... What that means is the tie maker takes a large square of silk and folds it a number of times (7) so that the tie when looked at is actually the same as the ties that most people wear however aside from the stitching whcich holds it together its 100% silk (folded into itself.) No lining inside the tie (which on a quality tie is usually 100% wool) , and no backing of a different material (the backing that you see in that litle diamond area from the back of the tip of the tie till where it folds on both ends of the tie). Due to the high cost of silks this practice was sort of dropped in favor a much smaller piece of silk and some wool lining to make ties as we know them today.

The Five Fold or Four Fold is a play on the seven fold but its actually a lined tie as well. What happens though is that because it is in fact lined it has to be closed on both ends (the seven fold is not closed as its just turned in at the edges) and in my opinion the additional silks used with the lining make the tie bulky and a bit unweildy and doesnt allow for any knot thicker than the four in hand. Of course the Europeans who favor the thick knots and short ties might just disagree with me there. (Note the self tipping on the blue tie as opposed to the tie itself just turned in on the red seven fold)

**banksmiranda** · July 1st, 2004, 02:44 PM

I agree that unlined, untipped 7-fold is the "authentic"/original method. However, the lined, tipped 7-fold ties such as BB Golden Fleece, Carlo Franco's Como, and Kiton are definitely not 4-fold ties. These ties use essentially the same folding pattern as the "authentic" 7-folds. A 4-fold is extremely basic. The piece of silk is laid down, both sides are folded inward once (small flap), then again(big flap), and slip or saddle-stitched.

**FIHTies** · July 1st, 2004, 02:56 PM

Quote:

I agree that unlined, untipped 7-fold is the "authentic"/original method. However, the lined, tipped 7-fold ties such as BB Golden Fleece, Carlo Franco's Como, and Kiton are definitely not 4-fold ties. These ties use essentially the same folding pattern as the "authentic" 7-folds. A 4-fold is extremely basic. The piece of silk is laid down, both sides are folded inward once (small flap), then again(big flap), and slip or saddle-stitched.

Banks:

Look at the blue tie on the previous post and compare it to the Como Series on the FC site and tell me what the difference is.

I dont see any.

JJF

PS: Not Backing off

.

**banksmiranda** · July 1st, 2004, 03:05 PM

Quote:

tell me what the difference is. I dont see any.

Nor do I.

Quote:

Not Backing off

Good - as long as it's a civil debate, that's how I like it.

**Carlo** · July 19th, 2004, 10:57 PM

LOL... since my ties are used in both 'sides' I thought I would opine.

The 'True 7-folds' tie like my Campagna series, or the FIH's example or Robert Talbott's are the traditional '7-fold'.

The Double 4-fold more commonly seen in my Como series was, to the best of my knowledge, started by Kiton.

I've done both patterns using the same silk and can tell you that a double-4 and a 'true 7' use the same amount of silk essentially. I will always do both because some folks prefer each type. What I ahve found is that my customers generally whisper to me "Y'know, I like the IDEA of an unlined 7-fold but truth be told I like the double 4-fold better".

A 'true 7' is quite elegant when you look at the construction but the choice of silks appropriate for it is rather limited. I'm sure FIH will agree that no matter how heavy the silk the 'true 7' is far more 'finicky' and likes to wrinkle and crease.

The cost is the same but the 'double-4' has some advantages.

1, The folds are symmetrical - not true in a true-7. The double 4 could be called an 8 fold if you really want to get down to it because the silk is first doubled and then folded twice symmmetrically over a quality liner. Some makers use only a thin linen canvas, some a double wool and some a single wool depending on the heft and fullness they want.

2. Wrapping around a liner helps the shape. I have every tie made in the upper price ranges and have taken every single one apart... in short, I've 'stress tested' everything and my PERSONAL finding is that a double four is the best blend of thickness, knotting and shape. It also allows more silk choices because most true 7's either use a double-sided weave (not many varieties) or a heavy silk with a raw back side (what I do) or a heavy jacquard that is then silk screened (talbott). IMHO the best silks are the intricately woven ones that allow you to play with light in 3 dimensions. I like true-7 when the silk is suited to it but find that with double-4 construction I can go a little crazy on the designs.

In short - you have to decide what you like in a tie. I like some heft and I like intricate weaves that do crazy things with the light. In the 'regular standard construction' class I like Ricci, Zegna and Charvet for the sheen and tactile intigue and that influences many of our designs.

At the end of the day i sit and listen to amny of the debates, smile, put on the tie that i am in the mood for... then carefully take the end off a Montecristo #2, pour 4 fingers of a single barrel bourbon and enjoy my evening.

...to date this has severely limited my ability to get ulcers or generally give a damn... a skill that is more useful than any i have mastered. It really is all small stuff guys :-)

Nice silk FIH - I know the mill - nice choice.

**brescd01** · July 20th, 2004, 04:24 AM

Am I the only one confused? No, the salesman at Boyds is even more confused and had no idea what a seven-fold was (he gave me an answer but he was wrong, when I asked him to show me his seven-folds). But now I am confused again. I need pictures of 1) regular tie 2) seven fold 3) self-tipped seven fold 4) un-self-tipped seven fold. The free world depends on my understanding this (I just watched "The Grid" so maybe I am thinking a little over the top).

I wish we had a gallery with the best threads and photos, akin to what English Lounge has to illustrate points. Steve?

Carlo, the image you paint is perfect, as fine as the pictures in "Man's Best Friend" or "This England," two picture books from National Geographic whose photos I drooled over as a child, wanting to be just like the people in the pictures....

**FIHTies** · July 20th, 2004, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Am I the only one confused? No, the salesman at Boyds is even more confused and had no idea what a seven-fold was (he gave me an answer but he was wrong, when I asked him to show me his seven-folds). But now I am confused again. I need pictures of 1) regular tie 2) seven fold 3) self-tipped seven fold 4) un-self-tipped seven fold. The free world depends on my understanding this (I just watched "The Grid" so maybe I am thinking a little over the top).

I wish we had a gallery with the best threads and photos, akin to what English Lounge has to illustrate points. Steve?

Carlo, the image you paint is perfect, as fine as the pictures in "Man's Best Friend" or "This England," two picture books from National Geographic whose photos I drooled over as a child, wanting to be just like the people in the pictures....

David, we had a thread on types of ties but I have to edit it. I will try and find it.

J once tried to get the HOF threads that were repetitive.

JJF

**Carlo** · July 20th, 2004, 11:25 AM

David - Cravatology for Dummies version...

Reg'lar old tie - little bit of silk on front, acetate backing, wool liner if you are lucky, otherwise synthetic.

Self tipped - a section of the same silk you find on front is used to 'back' the wide part of the tie so that it looks like the front.

Self-looped - uses a piece of the silk as the tie keeper.

Double 4-fold - The silk is doubled over a lining and then each side is folded inward twice for a thick, heavy tie that holds it's shape.

"True" 7 fold tie - no liner at all, edges are rolled under and sewn, the large piece of silk is folded inward in varying methods (no two people who do it are going to listen if you tell'm to do it your way, they will throw things (usually sharp) at you until you leave the room).

Self tipped 7-fold: Sort of a misnomer since there is no backing. SOME silks are woven such that either side looks the same.

So whether double 4 or 7 is really better depends on your personal preferences, each has certain advantages. In either case the important thing at this level of neckwear is keep it out of your soup :-)

July 1st, 2004, 02:09 PM	#5
faustian bargain Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 2,523	starting to sound like 'golden fleeced' line... (sorry couldn't resist.)
	Yet he who grasps the moment's gift, He is the proper man. --Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Faust* (I, 4, 494)*

July 20th, 2004, 04:24 AM	#13
brescd01 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 450	Am I the only one confused? No, the salesman at Boyds is even more confused and had no idea what a seven-fold was (he gave me an answer but he was wrong, when I asked him to show me his seven-folds). But now I am confused again. I need pictures of 1) regular tie 2) seven fold 3) self-tipped seven fold 4) un-self-tipped seven fold. The free world depends on my understanding this (I just watched "The Grid" so maybe I am thinking a little over the top). I wish we had a gallery with the best threads and photos, akin to what English Lounge has to illustrate points. Steve? Carlo, the image you paint is perfect, as fine as the pictures in "Man's Best Friend" or "This England," two picture books from National Geographic whose photos I drooled over as a child, wanting to be just like the people in the pictures....
	Qui tacet consentire videtur

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July 1st, 2004, 01:54 PM	#1
banksmiranda Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 725	I decided to pay a visit to Brooks Brothers today. I found (on my own) their small Golden Fleece line of 7-fold ties, surprise surprise, with their small Golden Fleece line of dress shirts. The Golden Fleece shirts and ties are made in the USA. The silk of these particular ties was woven in England. The Golden Fleece ties were pretty nice - self-tipped, but they cost $150. The Golden Fleece shirts cost $175.

July 1st, 2004, 02:03 PM	#3
banksmiranda Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 725	They were self-tipped.

July 1st, 2004, 02:21 PM	#6
banksmiranda Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 725	There are lined, self-tipped 7-fold ties, an example of which is Carlo Franco's Como line of 7-fold ties. The Carlo Franco Campagna 7-fold tie is unlined and untipped. The Golden Fleece ties did have a lining. Trust me on this. The BB four-fold ties are obviously lined, but are never self-tipped.

July 1st, 2004, 02:29 PM	#7
shoreman80 Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 50	Brooks Bros. Online has a selection of Golden Fleece shirts on sale, which I figure is not common. I think they're 80-100 USD. Sizing is limited, but if I hadn't been so irresponsible lately I might pick one up just to try... Sorry to hijack the thread, I know nothing about the ties... (though I'm wearing a normal BB tie right now).

July 1st, 2004, 02:44 PM	#9
banksmiranda Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 725	I agree that unlined, untipped 7-fold is the "authentic"/original method. However, the lined, tipped 7-fold ties such as BB Golden Fleece, Carlo Franco's Como, and Kiton are definitely not 4-fold ties. These ties use essentially the same folding pattern as the "authentic" 7-folds. A 4-fold is extremely basic. The piece of silk is laid down, both sides are folded inward once (small flap), then again(big flap), and slip or saddle-stitched.

July 19th, 2004, 10:57 PM	#12
Carlo Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,027	LOL... since my ties are used in both 'sides' I thought I would opine. The 'True 7-folds' tie like my Campagna series, or the FIH's example or Robert Talbott's are the traditional '7-fold'. The Double 4-fold more commonly seen in my Como series was, to the best of my knowledge, started by Kiton. I've done both patterns using the same silk and can tell you that a double-4 and a 'true 7' use the same amount of silk essentially. I will always do both because some folks prefer each type. What I ahve found is that my customers generally whisper to me "Y'know, I like the IDEA of an unlined 7-fold but truth be told I like the double 4-fold better". A 'true 7' is quite elegant when you look at the construction but the choice of silks appropriate for it is rather limited. I'm sure FIH will agree that no matter how heavy the silk the 'true 7' is far more 'finicky' and likes to wrinkle and crease. The cost is the same but the 'double-4' has some advantages. 1, The folds are symmetrical - not true in a true-7. The double 4 could be called an 8 fold if you really want to get down to it because the silk is first doubled and then folded twice symmmetrically over a quality liner. Some makers use only a thin linen canvas, some a double wool and some a single wool depending on the heft and fullness they want. 2. Wrapping around a liner helps the shape. I have every tie made in the upper price ranges and have taken every single one apart... in short, I've 'stress tested' everything and my PERSONAL finding is that a double four is the best blend of thickness, knotting and shape. It also allows more silk choices because most true 7's either use a double-sided weave (not many varieties) or a heavy silk with a raw back side (what I do) or a heavy jacquard that is then silk screened (talbott). IMHO the best silks are the intricately woven ones that allow you to play with light in 3 dimensions. I like true-7 when the silk is suited to it but find that with double-4 construction I can go a little crazy on the designs. In short - you have to decide what you like in a tie. I like some heft and I like intricate weaves that do crazy things with the light. In the 'regular standard construction' class I like Ricci, Zegna and Charvet for the sheen and tactile intigue and that influences many of our designs. At the end of the day i sit and listen to amny of the debates, smile, put on the tie that i am in the mood for... then carefully take the end off a Montecristo #2, pour 4 fingers of a single barrel bourbon and enjoy my evening. ...to date this has severely limited my ability to get ulcers or generally give a damn... a skill that is more useful than any i have mastered. It really is all small stuff guys :-) Nice silk FIH - I know the mill - nice choice.

July 20th, 2004, 11:25 AM	#15
Carlo Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,027	David - Cravatology for Dummies version... Reg'lar old tie - little bit of silk on front, acetate backing, wool liner if you are lucky, otherwise synthetic. Self tipped - a section of the same silk you find on front is used to 'back' the wide part of the tie so that it looks like the front. Self-looped - uses a piece of the silk as the tie keeper. Double 4-fold - The silk is doubled over a lining and then each side is folded inward twice for a thick, heavy tie that holds it's shape. "True" 7 fold tie - no liner at all, edges are rolled under and sewn, the large piece of silk is folded inward in varying methods (no two people who do it are going to listen if you tell'm to do it your way, they will throw things (usually sharp) at you until you leave the room). Self tipped 7-fold: Sort of a misnomer since there is no backing. SOME silks are woven such that either side looks the same. So whether double 4 or 7 is really better depends on your personal preferences, each has certain advantages. In either case the important thing at this level of neckwear is keep it out of your soup :-)